D&D 4E My First 4E Game: Disappointing. Yours? (UPDATED with player feedback)

[Majoru Oakheart]

A lot of people are excited about playing D&D, and it just seems silly that there aren't already an official set of fastplay rules for us to run with. I mean why not just clean up and release the fastplay rules the GMs had at D&D Experience? That way everyone would be using the CORRECT version of the rules at least.

Would that have made things better? In some cases, definitely yes!

As a side note, we weren't given quickplay rules in order to run the games at D&D Experience. We were given the entire combat chapter of the PHB. I doubt they want to clean that up and release it to anyone.

 

[LordArchaon]

I'm fascinated by this "automatic process" of indisposition towards 4e with always the same argument of "it's like WoW".
You know why? Because it's a SHAME that all the people who say this are actually WoW players.
I even feel stupid writing "WoW", because I actually understood what that abbreviation meant only few weeks ago, when I started to read about 4e critics. And it was not easy however.
Because I've NEVER BEEN INTERESTED in WoW or any MORPG (is that the right abbreviation?).
If these people know so much about them, I can see why they don't like 4e. And I pretty much think they'll not like any other table-top RPG.
They like 3e because they started playing it BEFORE WoW. Only because of that. If 3e, just as is, would have come out now, these people wouldn't like it at all.
To end my rant, I think those WoW-4e comparators are always attacking 4e because they see in it the "image" of WoW which is surely something they love and hate at the same time: because they pretty surely are addicted to it.
So their critics are of the most irrational species one could find among critics in general.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I don't

I stopped reading here.

 

[hbarsquared]

I stopped reading here. Why post at all?



Edit: Forgot Smiley....

Clever. I like it.

 

[smathis]

So that's that. From what I can tell, they weren't personally offended by 4E on principle; they were just in the mood for something different. (emphasis mine)

From reading their comments, I'd say they were in the mood for more of the same.

It also sounds like these guys are an existing group of friends for whom you have just started DMing. That can be a pretty tough situation if you are the newcomer to the group.

A couple of their comments also pointed out another valid point of contention for changing over to 4e. A lot of 3.x players know the game, know their "optimal builds" or at least a few they're wanting to try out and just aren't interested in scrapping all that to start over again.

In a way, the poster who said that 3.x was a player-pleasing/DM-screwing game is just expounding on this viewpoint.

Reading that in their comments, I'd have to say if you're going to stick with this group you'll have to keep running 3.5 until one of them begins to champion for 4e.

That said, when 3e came out, I was playing with a group who regularly played AD&D. I bought the 3e right when they came out and was itching to try it out. But it wasn't until almost 6 months after the release -- after a couple of other guys had read some of the PHB -- that I got that chance.

It's one part the misery of being an early adopter and another part just being that low on the totem pole. Every group has their dynamics. If I was higher up in the perceived chain of "authority" or whatnot, they would've jumped on board without a hitch. Probably pretty similar in your situation.

I'd say stick with what they know until one of the guys who didn't forget his laptop says he's interested in trying 4e. Sure, he'll take the credit for introducing it to his friends (god, how many times has THAT happened to me?) and you'll finally get to run the game proper.

That's assuming you can stay with the dynamic that long. When I was younger, I didn't mind being the "kobold" of the group so to speak. But as I've aged, my BS meter has gotten more and more sensitive.

Maybe you can play in a demo or in a short campaign with another group in the area?

 

[variant]

I wouldn't say 4e looks like WoW because I've never played WoW, but you cannot look at the rules and tell me some of it doesn't look similar to various MMOGs on the market.

 

[hbarsquared]

but you cannot look at the rules and tell me it doesn't look similar to various MMOGs on the market.

It does not look similar to various MMOGs on the market.

Seriously, you can find elements of most of the rule changes hidden in the House Rules and Homebrew forums from the past ten years.

Not to mention that other changes are based on simple good game design theory, of which other games, which happen to be Massive, Multiplayer, and Online, partake.

 

[smathis]

I wouldn't say 4e looks like WoW because I've never played WoW, but you cannot look at the rules and tell me some of it doesn't look similar to various MMOGs on the market.

I couldn't give a definitive opinion because I tend not to play computer games. But from what I've played, I'll have to say the whole debate strikes me as a chicken-before-the-egg situation.

I mean, is 4e more like an MMORPG because the "bosses" get tougher to kill when they get close to dying?

Maybe. But, then again, there was this cat monster in 2e that got bigger and bigger everytime it fell to 0 hps until it reached really freakin' big and the PCs finally killed. And then Dragonlance had dragonmen who would explode when they were killed. So, is it a situation of 4e borrowing from WoW or a situation of WoW and other videogames expanding on something in TRPGs, running with it and then having that come back to the table after so many years.

From my experience, pretty much everything about the "4e =/= WoW" debate falls into this realm. There's very little that these CRPGs are doing (game system-wise) that doesn't take a nod to tabletop games in some form. So is it that TRPGs are becoming like MMOs or have MMOs just been emulating TRPGs all this time?

Frankly, I don't know and I really don't care. A good idea is a good idea. I don't care if the spell system was ripped whole-hog out of Mahjong and the Healing Surges work like passing Go in Monopoly. As long as it's fun.

I pretty much view the "4e == WoW" viewpoint espoused by CNName's players as just a big lark and a distraction from the real issue of what is and isn't better about 4e. Trying to point out how 4e is similar to WoW is a non-issue. Of course it is. But the greater issue is that WoW was like D&D first. And the circle goes on and on...

After that's recognized, the whole issue becomes pretty pointless (in my eyes).

 

[Zil]

They like 3e because they started playing it BEFORE WoW. Only because of that. If 3e, just as is, would have come out now, these people wouldn't like it at all.
To end my rant, I think those WoW-4e comparators are always attacking 4e because they see in it the "image" of WoW which is surely something they love and hate at the same time: because they pretty surely are addicted to it.
So their critics are of the most irrational species one could find among critics in general.

I don't buy this argument. I suspect that when most critics say they don't like the WoW feel they find in 4E, it is because they don't want their tabletop Fantasy Role Playing game to be (or feel to them) too much like the computer game. It's that simple. It doesn't mean they are irrational. I can like peanuts and chocolate, but put the two of them together, and I don't like the result. It's a matter of taste. And if the new edition tastes wrong to many people, they have every right to not eat it without being labeled as irrational. Same as those who like chocolate covered peanuts have every right to like them even I personally have a problem with the combination.

 

[Umbran]

To end my rant, I think those WoW-4e comparators are always attacking 4e because they see in it the "image" of WoW which is surely something they love and hate at the same time: because they pretty surely are addicted to it.
So their critics are of the most irrational species one could find among critics in general.

Welcome to EN World!

You're relatively new here, so allow me to remind you of some of our posting rules - we ask you to keep things civil. As an extension of that - speaking as if you can read minds, such that you know what other people's thought processes are without them telling you, is generally considered massively rude in these parts.

We ask you to post with respect for your fellow posters and their ideas. Claiming another person is irrational is downright dismissive, and therefore disrespectful. Please don't do this again.

If you have any questions about this, or any of the posting rules of EN World, please feel free to e-mail any of the moderators - our e-mail addresses are in a post stickied to the top of the Meta forum.