My First Ever d&d post! attempt at warrior vs wizard pvp

[Dandu]

A warrior with an AMF item is still as much of a one trick pony as ever, limited to stabbing things and taking punches to the face.

PVP does not determine tiers. Versatility and power determines tiers, so unless giving the fighter an AMF item somehow makes his class more powerful or versatile, he's still tier 5.

Also, as much of a power boost as AMF is, it still might not be enough. We could find out for certain with a few playtests, though.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Over the years I've made several very good fighters and I think they only get better created with time. Now I will admit that without some extraordiary magic items fighters are your "in your face hack and slash" PC sometimes that's all it takes to down a wizard.

Now I read some of the arguments presented and skimmed over all that stuff about tier 1 (couldn't find the other tiers so if you could post links for those I'd be grateful..thanks ) and I will say wizards are versatile, powerful PCsand anyone is "brave" for going head to head against one at level 20. But I'd be willing to build a just a straight level 20 fighter and with hack and slash combat say its going to come down to the person behind the character, the rules of the encounter and the luck of the dice, not the classes themselves. (although I will agree some classes are inherently "better" than others)

20th level fighter can take the mageslayer feats plus all the bonus fighter feats they normally would and some good weapons and armor and other gear and with lucky dice kill that wizard in round one. Of course the wizard can do the same to the fighter too especially if that fighter fails that save or die roll. And that's the idea. I'd say the dice will have more of an impact than anything.

Ultimately I'd think if you made build after build and did thousands of combat simulations you'd wind up that the fighter archtype and the wizard archtype each won about half the time (one might have a slight edge over the other but no more than a few percentage points)

 

[Dandu]

Dice are irrelevant when you can bypass the initiative order by using Foresight or Shapechange into a Minotaur to avoid being flat-footed, Celerity to go first, and Time Stop to gain several virtual rounds before the opponent has even begun to act.

 

[cjosephs1s]

And once again all this depends on the rules of engagment.

Ok...you got me with Greater Celerity and the Time Stop combo but the fighter's not dead. You just get a few "free actions" depending on your dice roll (once again those pesky dice come out..lol). Oh and I'm in good spirits about this latest "challenge" you've presented me with.

I'd like to see how a knowledgable master mage, such as yourself Dandu, would kill/render useless a formidable fighter with your free actions; if you don't mind. I don't expect a character or anything like that I'd just like to see some tactics that would kill a fighter or make it impossible for a fighter type to kill you. I think we both can agree that a good fighter can whack a mage to death with a few crits in a single round (at least all the ones I build can ).

 

[Empirate]

You're not getting to the Wizard to whack him around. He's sitting nice and cozy inside his dome-shaped Wall of Stone where your AMF isn't getting to him either, in Dread Wraith shape (or something other incorporeal). He has also just Gated in a Celestial Gold Dragon or two to eat you. He doesn't even have to do anything much at this point.

Also, since when do you roll anything for Time Stop? Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize, plus another one of Extend, gives you all the time in the world.

 

[nonsi256]

And once again all this depends on the rules of engagment.

Ok...you got me with Greater Celerity and the Time Stop combo but the fighter's not dead. You just get a few "free actions" depending on your dice roll (once again those pesky dice come out..lol). Oh and I'm in good spirits about this latest "challenge" you've presented me with.

I'd like to see how a knowledgable master mage, such as yourself Dandu, would kill/render useless a formidable fighter with your free actions; if you don't mind. I don't expect a character or anything like that I'd just like to see some tactics that would kill a fighter or make it impossible for a fighter type to kill you. I think we both can agree that a good fighter can whack a mage to death with a few crits in a single round (at least all the ones I build can ).

One doesn't need a lot more than Sudden Quicken Prismatic Sphere.

 

[emoplato]

Okay, what items do you have on hand? You really need a tactical game plan if you are going to put in nearly as much thought in the wizard as you did this you need a way to get out of sight. The Invisible Blade as it stands is your lynch pin giving you hide and move silently, if you can find a way to get a decent distraction you can move in for a kill without getting blasted by single target spells(celerity). As pointed out there are still field control spells available to the wizard you need a way to bypass them. While flying is great unless you are in a rocky pass or something like that those skills won't work well for you. I ask again what items do you have and what can you get?

 

[cjosephs1s]

And who wants an antimagic field? I need my magic items too...lol

Hmmm...Interesting. A Gold dragon. I'll even help you out and say you only want to gate in one as you can only control 40HD worth of critters (2 wouldn't be as effective as that's a CR 13 monster and not much challenge for a fighter) I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that a 40HD celestial gold dragon isn't a unique creature. Tough fight. In 2 or 3 rounds either the dragon or the fighter will be dead. Not sure which though.

So this is your main strategy is to attack me with the biggest thing you can find? I was really hoping for something cool as you guys keep ranting and raving how awesome and versatile and everything else wizards are and how fighters are one trick ponies that just beat the crap out of you with lots of damage. It works but it took you a lot of effort(one 8th, and two 9th level spells) to just beat the crap out of me using phyical attacks.

Being some incorporeal undead inside your wall just lets me know where to find you should I survive the dragon though. The wall will be an easy smash thorough with a weapon and every good fighter wants to carry his Greater Truedeath Crystal

Oh and you can only use one rod per round even if you have 7 of them so you can leave it up to the dice or take your 4 rounds of actions.

Prismatic Sphere is just about making a few saves. Roll well and I'm hacking you to bits with no ill side effects. Roll poorly and well who knows. Depends on which save I fail..lol

 

[Dandu]

And once again all this depends on the rules of engagment.

Ok...you got me with Greater Celerity and the Time Stop combo but the fighter's not dead.

Not even Greater Celerity. Regular Celerity is all you need, because casting Time Stop is a standard action.

I'd like to see how a knowledgable master mage, such as yourself Dandu, would kill/render useless a formidable fighter with your free actions; if you don't mind. I don't expect a character or anything like that I'd just like to see some tactics that would kill a fighter or make it impossible for a fighter type to kill you.

Here is how I would do it.

Pre-match: Buffs are Mind Blank (24 hours) and Extended Shapechange (duration 8-9 hours depending on how much caster level is boosted).
Initiative rolls: Cast Celerity. Gain a standard action. Cast Time Stop. Assume minimum rolls, gain 2 rounds.
Virtual round 1: Dazed.
Virtual Round 2: Swift Action Shapechange into a Choker for an extra standard action. Cast Gate and summon an Epic level monster (say, a Phane). Use extra standard action to cast Rope Trick. Use move action to enter the Rope Trick.
Round 1: Fighter dies to Epic level monster.

There are, needless to say, many other ways of doing this. Offhand, you could Polymorph Any Object the floor and ceiling into aqua regia or lava and then teleport away. That's always quite fun to do. Or open a Bag of Holding on the floor and put a Portable Hole right above it so that when Time Stop ends, one falls into the other for maximum hilarity. Really, the sky's the limit here.

I think we both can agree that a good fighter can whack a mage to death with a few crits in a single round (at least all the ones I build can ).

The trouble is getting into a position to deliver those critical hits. And getting critical hits in the first place, considering a Mithral Buckler of Greater Fortification is very affordable towards the endgame. And that there are several buffs (Elemental Body, Veil of Undeath) that make you immune to critical hits. I could go on.

 

[Empirate]

And who wants an antimagic field? I need my magic items too...lol

Hmmm...Interesting. A Gold dragon. I'll even help you out and say you only want to gate in one as you can only control 40HD worth of critters (2 wouldn't be as effective as that's a CR 13 monster and not much challenge for a fighter) I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that a 40HD celestial gold dragon isn't a unique creature. Tough fight. In 2 or 3 rounds either the dragon or the fighter will be dead. Not sure which though.

So this is your main strategy is to attack me with the biggest thing you can find? I was really hoping for something cool as you guys keep ranting and raving how awesome and versatile and everything else wizards are and how fighters are one trick ponies that just beat the crap out of you with lots of damage. It works but it took you a lot of effort(one 8th, and two 9th level spells) to just beat the crap out of me using phyical attacks.

Being some incorporeal undead inside your wall just lets me know where to find you should I survive the dragon though. The wall will be an easy smash thorough with a weapon and every good fighter wants to carry his Greater Truedeath Crystal

Oh and you can only use one rod per round even if you have 7 of them so you can leave it up to the dice or take your 4 rounds of actions.

Prismatic Sphere is just about making a few saves. Roll well and I'm hacking you to bits with no ill side effects. Roll poorly and well who knows. Depends on which save I fail..lol

Thoughts:
The general conundrum a warrior character faces in this matchup is this: "to magic it up, or not to magic it up?". If you want to be at all useful, you need magic items galore. If you don't have their effects up, you're useless. You need some form of True Seeing, flight, and Freedom of Movement at the very least. Otherwise you won't be able to see and get to the Wizard. Immunities to a lot of other stuff (negative levels, death effects, ability damage, mind-affecting etc.) are also important - pure reliance on saving throws brings in the problem of iterative probability and isn't advised really. So Antimagic Field isn't really useful, since the Wizard can just stay out of reach and use 'magic non-magical' stuff to bring you down, like some gated in creatures.

On the other hand, if you're that dependent on magic items, a single Mordenkainen's Disjunction will short out many or most of them. Making you just as useless. A lot depends on when you erect that AMF, and when you let it disappear again (all depending on getting a custom magic item that has such a feature in the first place - and if you can get a custom magic item, the Wizard can, as well). But whichever way you're doing it, the Wizard goes first, and you'll be on the back foot and reacting from that time on.

Another thing is gear and preparation. Even a Wizard with nothing but his component pouch and spellbook will likely be extremely well prepared for just about anything, while a Fighter simply can't. Nevertheless, Wizards with good gear are even better, of course. Preparation, OTOH, doesn't do much for the Fighter (in that, he can't take good advantage of it if he has time to prepare), but will make the Wizard sooo much more of a pain...



To answer your points directly:
Took the Wizard just a very few spells to take down an opponent. He has almost all of his daily allotment to fall back on, should he need to. Depending on your magical defenses, he can MDJ your stuff, then put you in some inescapable battlefield control plus damage-over-time; or summon bunches and bunches of tough critters for you to amuse yourself with; or make you bend over and take it with mind-affecting spells for fun; or make you his own personal Wight with a bunch of negative levels; or reduce you to a quivering husk with ability damage/penalties...

On gating in Celestial Gold Dragons: I can use more than one Gate spell if I need more than one. I do think I can make do with one, though. Note that I just used a fraction of a CR 20 character's resources to bring a CR 29 creature to the field. Make further note that the dragon can cast like a 19th level Wizard, and can also use Cleric spells. It also has 717 friggin' HP - quite the meatshield. It also has 6 attacks at +51/+46/+46/+46/+46/+46, for 4d8+18, 2 x 4d6+9, 2 x 2d6+9, 4d6+27 (no buffs, no feats, no PA...). Average 134 damage if it hits with all (which it just might). Escaping its grapple will be difficult to say the least, should the Fighter neglect FoM. AC 41 (no buffs etc.) is hard to hit, too. That's one helluva monster for a single fighter to tackle. You know why it's so hard? Even if you have lots of magical stuff so your bonuses don't look too bad in comparison, this critter has no compunctions to use its own AMF to get you.

Finding the Wizard and getting to him: given you have True Seeing on, and the place where this hypothetical duel is taking place has walls that are impassable for incorporeal creatures, yes, you know where the Wizard is. Until your magic items are busted by MDJ and the Wizard 'ports to where it suits him better. Or until you simply find yourself within a Sleet Storm or similar spell that robs you of all vision.

You sure about those rods? Never mind, I'll take my 4 rounds of actions. Should be plenty.

'Prismatic Stuff' spells are quite reliable actually. You have to pass through them to be able to attack again - but if there's something on the other side blocking your move, you can't pass through. Wall of Stone immediately behind Prismatic Wall makes for a solid defense, nigh unbreachable. You'd need a Rod of Cancellation, costing you another round...


To sum up:
A well-built Wizard at 20th level is all but unsurprisable by anything a Fighter can bring to the battlefield. The Fighter, on the other hand, has to prepare for so many avenues of attack it isn't even funny. The very simple "gate in something that's a better fighter than the Fighter, then kick back and relax" is probably the strongest showcase of why Wizards are in tier 1, while Fighters are in tier 5.