My First Ever d&d post! attempt at warrior vs wizard pvp

[GreyLord]

I've seen AMF take wizards down countless times. The thing is there isn't going to necessarily be pre-combat buffs or any prep time at all for a Wizard...the same may go for the Fighter.

An AMF sword would emanate while drawn, so that's an easy fix if the fighter really wants to go up against a Spellcaster without the AMF...however once a caster is in range, a Wizard becomes essentially a really bad fighter who can't casts spells when in the field. This is where I ask about tiers...since at that point the Wizard is really limited on their own abilities.

It get's worse against a Rogue or Assassin type as they should be able to hit the Wizard when the Wizard least expects it...aka...not only hasn't prepped, has been casting spells to do something else and doesn't have anything really ready to face them...something a high level Rogue or Assassin should be good at finding.

But in a straight fight, if the Wizard get's in the AMF with a fighter, there are still options for the inventive Wizard. For starters...the Wizard can run. It's simply to try to get to the point where he's outside the AMF...even for a really weak wizard who is low on spells or low level...that's always an option.

Once outside the AMF, the wizard can cast spells, and though the fighter can't be affected by certain spells cast directly, he can be affected by the environment.

Or, the Wizard could have things which still help him in an AMF.

AMF's though help bring an element to help balance out a fight since it gives some immunity to the Fighter and nullifies some elements of the Wizard's power.

The Fighter is still...as one put it in the thread...a "one trick pony" in relation to being a physical combat animal.

A high level Wizard if they aren't in an AMF can actually use a spell to nullify it if they want to.

But for that moment when they are in the AMF, I think it actually can balance out the Fighter quite well against the Spellcasting types overall.

As a wizard I could still baste the Fighter half a million ways and still keep going on till tomorrow...but if the Fighter gets some good rolls or the Wizard gets some bad ones...it could be over pretty quick.

But until it becomes a staple in one's game, many wizard players may be caught offguard and wouldn't be able to extricate themselves out of the situation as they aren't used to these tricks.

Of course the same tricks used on one side of the equation can be used on the other...so new things will be needed by players who are Fighters to bring down Spellcasters...and of course Spellcasters on the players side will then ever after have to have the right stuff prepped constantly for the same tricks used against them.

AMF is only ONE balancing trick though among many. It's just the simplest and easiest to think up off the top of one's head for Magic.

The bigger question I've always had is why are all these Wizards and Clerics making all these Magic Items to begin with, especially the armors and weapons. It costs them XP and that's more valuable then gold IMO...I'd be spending it all on other items that would help the Spellcasters if I truly wanted to be a PVP type game.

 

[Arrowhawk]

This thread is comedy.

 

[Dandu]

But for that moment when they are in the AMF, I think it actually can balance out the Fighter quite well against the Spellcasting types overall.

My two favorite tactics to combat AMF involve
1. A metal cone that's either shrunk into a component for the pointy wizard hat, or Polymorph Any Object'd into a hat. When it gets hit by an AMF, the PAO is suppressed and the wizard is now under a metal cone, which blocks line of effect from the AMF and thus allows spells to be cast, like Time Stop.
2. A Greater Stone Golem that is hit with Stone to Flesh to remove the magic immunity for one round, then hit with a PAO to turn it into an ordinary item, say a button. When the wizard is hit by an AMF, the PAO is suppressed and the fighter sans magical buffs and gear now has to deal with a Greater Stone Golem.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Arrowhawk: Glad I could help bring a smile to your face. After all DnD is a game and is supposed to be fun (even if we are just on the forums).

Empirate: Yes fighters depend on their magic items just like every other class. Take away the wizards magic items and he's not nearly as powerful as one with magic items. It seems that almost every wizard thread has included some very potent magic items that are used to enhance their abilities and keep them alive. Just a good fighter would bring to a fight. I'm sure with unlimited resources either class could be nigh invincible against the other without even have to worry about tactics or dice rolls.

While you haven't used a lot of total daily alotment of spells I think that everyone would agree that a 9th level spell is a significantly more valued resource than a 1st level spell going against a CR 20 battle.

As far as the rods I read it directly from DMG as I am not as familiar with wizards and their gear as the rest. I also did this with all other spells to be sure of what they said. Now my interpretation of the rules could be wrong but that's what a DM is for and I'd rather not go on a tangent discussion about the rules. The HD of controlled critters for gate falls under this domain as well (feel free to start a new thread on either of these if you like and we can discuss them and get outside opinions as I think they would make good topics of discussion).

Dandu: I must have missed some errata on Lesser Celerity somewhere I read it 4 times and it still says move action but regardless the Greater version still lets you do what you need to so mute point for this combat cenario.

Wow that's one nasty Monster. Don't tell my DM about that guy geez! I think I have finally met a monster my character would be afraid of (and he wasn't even scared of the CR 21 tree thing hitting him for 50d10 lightning bolts when he was level 13..lol Its a gestalt campaign).

I love the portable hole/bag trick. Finally something that is cool and not just "I'm gonna find a monster to kill you" While this is effective I don't see it any different than my fighter being effective because he will physically beat things down...the one trick pony if you will.

I guess I was looking for a magic vs physical matchup here. The wizard using nothing but magic to stop the fighter and not resort to physical vs physical (even though wizards used magic to conjure something to do it its still not the same).

In General: While wizards rise to the top in this fight vs fighter types and I have a great deal more respect for them now I'd hope that every good wizard would want the "one trick pony" fighter in their party as much as the fighter wants the wizard.

So let me thank all involved for rendering me unconcious...lol Please take me to a priest so I can be healed/ressurected now and then buy you all an ale and have a good laugh...lol

 

[Dandu]

Dandu: I must have missed some errata on Lesser Celerity somewhere I read it 4 times and it still says move action but regardless the Greater version still lets you do what you need to so mute point for this combat cenario.

Look under "Celerity". It's the spell between "Lesser Celerity" and "Greater Celerity". Lesser Celerity grants a move action, Celerity grants a standard action, and Greater Celerity grants a full round action.

 

[Jimlock]

Look under "Celerity". It's the spell between "Lesser Celerity" and "Greater Celerity". Lesser Celerity grants a move action, Celerity grants a standard action, and Greater Celerity grants a full round action.

Excuse me for interfering.... but how will you cast Celerity if you've missed initiative?

 

[cjosephs1s]

Its considered an immediate action to cast the Celerity spells. So it can be cast anytime. I guess maybe technically you would have to roll for initiative but even if the wizard loses he can still cast it before the fighter goes.

 

[Jimlock]

Its considered an immediate action to cast the Celerity spells. So it can be cast anytime. I guess maybe technically you would have to roll for initiative but even if the wizard loses he can still cast it before the fighter goes.

No because you can't have an immediate action if you are flat-footed, and until you act you are flat-footed.
But I remember reading something about turning into a minotaur (who can't be caught flat-footed) so as to get the immediate action.
But what action do you use to turn into a minotaur?

or..

Are we taking for granted that the wizard starts off as a minotaur?

 

[Dandu]

i have previously stated that Extended Foresight or Extended Shapechange into a Minotaur can be used, and since both spells last at least 8 hours due to being extended and CL boosts, they cover a decent amount of the adventuring day with one casting.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Well once again its a matter of rules of engagement then (technically). If buffs and casting and all that other stuff is allowed before initiative takes place.

But this is a technicality with the flat footed thing. While Jimlock does have a point and yes it could save my life I'm over riding this as common sense in this and many situations. The idea that you see someone attacking you but they are somehow so fast you dont' have time to react even though you know they are attacking you is just silly.

Flat footed in essence means you were stopped dead in your tracks and attacked before you had a chance to react (me and my friend are walking side by side down the path and I attempt to stab him in the gut); hence flat footed. I'm not sure if 3.5 still has a surprise round or not anymore but that was the whole point of one and made much more sense. Once initiative is rolled that signals that your character is ready for combat and anything that might happen during combat including being attacked and thus not caught flat footed and unaware of an attack even if its not your turn yet. (does anyone allow rogues who win initiative to make a charge attack and add sneak attack damage when they stab something face to face? the idea sounds ridiculous and nothing like a sneak attack yet if you go by this silly rule that's what a rogue can do and probably do it well as they have a high initiative bonus.)

Is this flat footed thing a rule? yes. Does it make any kind of actual sense even in campaigns? no. Especially in this instance where this wizard knows for a fact, 100% bona fide guarenteed, its a pvp matchup.