My first thoughts after reading the Essentials

[WalterKovacs]

I really dislike that they do not have a Turn Undead power. I think that's an iconic power for the cleric.

The Essential cleric is weapon based. So, instead of turning undead, they get to smite undead instead ... which is quite similar, but instead uses a weapon.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

On the Climb DC issue (which should really fork): There are plenty of reasons why the same wall might be climbed at multiple tiers.

For example, you could have an entire campaign based in the same city and numerous plots that involve sneaking into the palace. The hard part might not be getting in, but in what needs to be done once one is inside. Now, you could just handwave the climbing part, but if you are going to have a DC it should probably be static throughout. Oh, the king might upgrade the wall because people like you keep sneaking in, but that isn't a given.

I'd give more, but you get the idea. I agree with Plane Sailing, and not just because he promised to sneak me a bunch of XP using his mad Moderator skill bonus.

 

[The Little Raven]

It should be made clear that not all situations use the scaling-by-level DC, with Climb being a particularly noteworthy case. A ladder is still DC 0 and a rope is DC 10, no matter what level you are.

And the Rules Compendium makes clear that the DC is based on the level of the challenge, not the level of the characters facing the challenge (but still notes that challenges well above/below the character level are not necessarily suitable).

 

[Jhaelen]

And the Rules Compendium makes clear that the DC is based on the level of the challenge, not the level of the characters facing the challenge (but still notes that challenges well above/below the character level are not necessarily suitable).

This. I'd prefer if all fixed DCs were replaced with easy/moderate/hard.

That would also make it easier to use traps, hazards, skill challenges, etc. from official sources at different levels.

As a DM, when I place terrain features in an encounter, I decide what level they should be and thus derive the DCs. Not all terrain features need to have the same level as the encounter just as not all monsters in an encounter need to be of the same level.

It's a just a different (more abstract) way to think about things. It doesn't really matter how a wall has been constructed, all that is important is how difficult does it appear to be to climb the wall.

I've recently played an adventure in which the pcs will return to the dungeon they'd visited at level 1 after gaining 3-4 levels. Naturally, all of the walls will still have the same level I've set in the beginning.

 

[Scribble]

Skills
Good: The new standard skill DCs are presented in a very clean way. I like that each skill has an improv section to help new Dms figure out DCs for certain actions.

Bad: Skill DCs are now even more based on your level and less on the situation. Some Dcs should not get higher simply because I'm higher level.

I think you misread something- The text in the RC reads:

The skill entries in this chapter give sample DCs for common uses of the skills. Some DCs are fixed, whereas others scale with level. A fixed DC represents a task that gets easier as an adventurer gains levels. By the time the adventurer reaches epic tier, certain tasks become trivial. In contrast, a DC that scales with level represents a task that remains at least a little challenging throughout an adventurers career.

The Dungeon Master can use the suggested DC for a task or set one using the Difficulty Class by Level table.

Not all DCs get higher just because you're higher level. Some remain the same DC.

Some though, DO get higher to represent a task that doesn't get easier just because you gained a level.

In other words the task doesn't get any harder, you just don't get any better at doing it.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you misread something- The text in the RC reads:

Its good to note that section is there, but its not what my argument was based on.

It was based on things like heal where it talks about an easy DC to tell if someone's dead.

Well...that should depend on the creature. A 1st level cleric shouldn't have the same ease telling a 1st level thug is dead compared to a 30th level cleric.


I think Plane Sailing summarized it well. Again, I'm not opposed to the ad hoc DC chart when I need to make a quick DC decision.

If I want to just put a wall that will be challenging to my 10th level party, I can just throw a DC in there. If they ask me why its X difficulty I'll give them some explanation.

However, if I'm world building and create a wall that might be used more than once, I want to know the DC for that kind of wall.

 

[Scribble]

Its good to note that section is there, but its not what my argument was based on.

It was based on things like heal where it talks about an easy DC to tell if someone's dead.

Well...that should depend on the creature. A 1st level cleric shouldn't have the same ease telling a 1st level thug is dead compared to a 30th level cleric.


I think Plane Sailing summarized it well. Again, I'm not opposed to the ad hoc DC chart when I need to make a quick DC decision.

If I want to just put a wall that will be challenging to my 10th level party, I can just throw a DC in there. If they ask me why its X difficulty I'll give them some explanation.

However, if I'm world building and create a wall that might be used more than once, I want to know the DC for that kind of wall.

Ah- you're summary now doesn't seem to match what you said earlier... Or I just didn't understand. Shrug.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree.

Putting the DC into easy/moderate/hard gives an idea of what the overall challenge should be, without constraining me to a number.

I don't want to comb through a bazillion pages of walls to find a DC/Flavor combo that matches what I need or want.

Just tell me climbing a rough wall is generally a moderate task, and I can set the difficulty based on whatever level wall I think it should be.

To me this opens up my world building options infinitely without also adding infinite pages.

With the cleric it's just telling me it's an easy task for a cleric no matter what the DC is. Clerics can just tell if stuff isn't alive. I can set the DC based on the creatures level.

 

[Stalker0]

With the cleric it's just telling me it's an easy task for a cleric no matter what the DC is. Clerics can just tell if stuff isn't alive. I can set the DC based on the creatures level.

Its the last part you mentioned there that I wish they had included. For us veterans, we know how to tailor DCs to our needs. New players may not.

For example, if they had said. Tell if something is dead. DC Easy Level: Level of the creature that died.


Or for a wall if they had said:

DC (Moderate)
Level: 5 (Rough Stone Wall), 15 (perfectly smooth wall), 30 (wall of force)

That at least gives the DM some context on what the DCs mean, and he can adjust for there.

So if I have a level 10 wall, I know its not perfectly smooth but its pretty smooth, etc.

 

[Scribble]

Its the last part you mentioned there that I wish they had included. For us veterans, we know how to tailor DCs to our needs. New players may not.

For example, if they had said. Tell if something is dead. DC Easy Level: Level of the creature that died.


Or for a wall if they had said:

DC (Moderate)
Level: 5 (Rough Stone Wall), 15 (perfectly smooth wall), 30 (wall of force)

That at least gives the DM some context on what the DCs mean, and he can adjust for there.

So if I have a level 10 wall, I know its not perfectly smooth but its pretty smooth, etc.

I agree in principle, I guess... But not sure if it's really the issue a newbie would face, as opposed to us "elders" inventing problems they'll face based on preconceived notions of "how stuffs done."

I mean for me and you, using the DC of the monster seems like a good option.

But it's also perfectly fine for a new DM to just use the party level... After all the majority of times it's going to come up is probably going to be when they face a challenge of their level anyway.

It would also be perfectly valid to use some other way of determining the level.

All it's really saying is the game suggests this idea be easy/moderate/hard, but the DM can set the difficulty level to whatever he wants based on whatever he wants.

I like this, as to me it seems like it's not trying to lock the game into one play style, and opens up the usefulness of skills to me.

 

[Larrin]

Deleted because stalker0 said exactly what i wanted to