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D&D 4E My first two 4E house rules

jeffh

Adventurer
I'm a big gearhead and tinkerer, though I've posted little proof of it here (especially lately), and so the chances of my running a game exactly as written are only slightly better than my chances of winning the upcoming US presidential election. Bear in mind here that I'm not even a US citizen. (Though by the time the election rolls around, I will meet the minimum age of 35... how'd that happen? :confused: ) While I will undoubtedly eventually do mass rewrites on the powers and so on, for now I settle for two significant, but quickly and easily expressed, changes.

  • 1-2-1-2 diagonal movement, if I even use a grid. Since I find it intuitive and seem to be good at explaining it to people, I don't anticipate much slowdown or confusion resulting, and I really can't stand the (much more noticeable) distortion of basic math and physics involved in 1-1-1-1. Having said all that, I'd rather this thread weren't used to re-open the general debate on that; there are other threads for that. But I will make one point about it below, which I welcome responses to.
  • A change to saving throws. Right now, saves are pretty static; by default you make them on a 10 or better regardless of any other aspect of your character, and very few things seem to modify this. I'm thinking about changing both aspects of this paradigm. First, raise the DC a little, I'm thinking to 12. Second, redefine what a save is in the first place. A save is an ability check - I'm still thinking about whether that should be in the 3E sense of a check modified only by your ability modifier, or the 4E sense where half your class level plays into it too, but heavily leaning toward the first. Escaping constriction might be a Strength save. Seeing through an illusion? Intelligence. Toughing out a poison? Constitution. Willpower stuff would be split between Wisdom and Charisma in some manner yet to be determined. I don't think it would be a bad thing if Dexterity wasn't very involved in saves, since the score continues to have at least some of the disproportionate importance in other areas that it did in 3E, including a large role in determining whether you get into a situation where you need to make saves in the first place.

As far as the 1-1-1-1 versus 1-2-1-2 debate - and to reiterate, while direct responses to the following point are welcome, I'd rather the larger debate didn't spill into this thread any more than can be helped - I do have one argument I'd like to address. A couple of people have been waving around things like the Rogue's "slide an enemy two squares" power as though the inability to make full use of this diagonally were a knockdown objection to 1-2-1-2, and I don't see the problem at all.

Using the by-the-book, 1-1-1-1 system, a "slide two squares" power can put the enemy anywhere within a 5-square by 5-square area centered on its starting location, given open terrain (and the effect of more restricted terrain on my argument is minimal).[1] That means that by the book, you have 24 choices for where the enemy ends up (that includes leaving it where it is, but excludes putting it in your own square, which I assume won't be allowed). By my rule, on the assumption that you can move the enemy through your own square (you flip it over your head or something) but not have it end up in your own square, 20 of those 24 options are still open; the only ones you lose are the four corners. Yeah, I suppose it makes the exploit in question slightly less powerful, but I'm not seeing that the difference involves any meaningful loss. Especially considering that, in terms of power level, there's a certain amount of diminishing returns with the number of options. The difference between one way of using a power and two is big; the difference between 20 and 24, much less so.

(Even if you can't move it through your own square, that only costs you one option [VERY LATE EDIT: and that only if you're not on a diagonal from it], that of moving it directly opposite you from where it started; so in that case you'd have 19 options [in some cases and 20 in others], not [always] 20. That still doesn't seem like a big deal.)

Admittedly, I make some assumptions above about how involuntary sliding will work in the first place. But I think they're very reasonable assumptions. Of course, if you know, not just speculate, anything specific about what the final rules will say on this point, I'm all ears.

As for saves, I think the change, while it may add a bit of complexity back in and slightly magnify the punishing aspects of having poor scores in Constitution or Wisdom in some situations, also gives back a bit of individuality to characters and a bit of importance to scores that some characters may be tempted to ignore. These effects seem beneficial to me. I can see people going either way on the tradeoff, but for me at least, the side I've suggested here looks to be the more attractive of the two.

[1] Some people seem to assume you won't be able to slide it only one square, or slide it, say, one square diagonally and then one square horizontally; but I don't see why either of these would be the case.
 
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Callikah

First Post
without actually having the full rules available you managed to make a coouple house rules? well at least you can claim to be the first to come up with some i guess :) and at least one of them is a pretty good idea.
 

Snarls-at-Fleas

First Post
jeffh said:
2. A change to saving throws. Right now, saves are pretty static; by default you make them on a 10 or better regardless of any other aspect of your character, and very few things seem to modify this. I'm thinking about changing both aspects of this paradigm. First, raise the DC a little, I'm thinking to 12. Second, redefine what a save is in the first place. A save is an ability check - I'm still thinking about whether that should be in the 3E sense of a check modified only by your ability modifier, or the 4E sense where half your class level plays into it too, but heavily leaning toward the first. Escaping constriction might be a Strength save. Seeing through an illusion? Intelligence. Toughing out a poison? Constitution. Willpower stuff would be split between Wisdom and Charisma in some manner yet to be determined. I don't think it would be a bad thing if Dexterity wasn't very involved in saves, since the score continues to have at least some of the disproportionate importance in other areas that it did in 3E, including a large role in determining whether you get into a situation where you need to make saves in the first place.

I think you'll have to rework lots of math to make it work. AFAIK +X to saving throw is some really important thing, which shouldn't be given lightly. Just think about it:
Even with DC 12 an average Int 18 1st level wizard has 60% chance of shrugging of any mind-affecting effect. And the 9 Int 1st level fighter has only 35% chance to suceed.
And besides right now we have a chance for the PCs to fail the save even at 30th level. If you allow to add something to it... Well, by 15-20th level you can just forget about effects that require saving throws.
 

keterys

First Post
I figure I'll just play the game as is for a bit first, and figure out what needs houseruling.

Both of these just sound like an inability to let go of old mechanics, and I'm not really seeing the gain. Especially not without trying the alternative out for at least a few weeks first.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
keterys said:
I figure I'll just play the game as is for a bit first, and figure out what needs houseruling.

Both of these just sound like an inability to let go of old mechanics, and I'm not really seeing the gain. Especially not without trying the alternative out for at least a few weeks first.

It strikes me as preordering a brand-new car, and making an appointment with your mechanic to replace a bunch of normal engine parts, without first getting the car and finding out if it needs those "repairs" or not.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
As I see it there DC10 to end an effect mechanism has two design goals which it meets

a) gives someone who has been zapped by an effect something to do every round (because this round I might throw it off!)

b) nobody knows exactly how long an effect is likely to last, unlike with the traditional duration method.

To be honest, I think that the best way of changing the 'saving throws' is to put things back on a duration basis as they were before - since as I'm sure you know they are not a 'saving throw' in the original sense of the word... that is the attack against the relevant defence (and is the point at which the archmage is pretty much immune to the goblin, while the goblin is going to suffer the maximum effect from the archmage every time).

SO

You could make all durations something like "1d6 rounds" (since the DC10 "saving throw" means you've been affected for 1 or more rounds and most people would have made the save after 6 attempts).

Where a race has a 'saving throw bonus' against something particular, you could add it to their defence (so a dwarf gets +5 on fortitude defence against poison rather than +5 on saves vs poison duration. An eladrin gets +5 on Will defence against charms rather than +5 on saves vs charms).

Some higher level powers might provide (4e) save penalties, which you would reflect by giving them longer durations.

Of course, it is highly likely that there will be powers available to PCs which will give them 'extra saving throw attempts' or 'bonus to saving throw attempts'. If "Iron Will" allowed you to add your Wis bonus to saving throws against all mind-affecting durations, that might meet some of your requirements anyway, yes?

Cheers
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Personally, I'm very likely to use 1-2-1-2 counting for diagonals unless there is a previously unthought of, supremely compelling reason to do otherwise :)

I'm also very likely to change the Eladrin "fey step" because 1st level characters teleporting isn't something I want in my campaign. I'll see how everything fits together on release, but I'm more likely to allow it as a shift into or out of the Fey realm, thus opening up the possibility of easy planar travel to the Feywild for Eladrin and their mates (which suits my sensibilities) rather than bamfing around the battlemat :)

Cheers
 


ShinRyuuBR

First Post
If you want to change the saving throws, why not simply repeat the attack that estabilished the effect in the first place? If a wizard casts sleep on you with 1d20+5 vs. your Will, let's say 14, repeat the attack or invert it to a defense roll: 1d20 +4 (14-10) vs. 15 (10 +5).
 

Plane Sailing said:
Personally, I'm very likely to use 1-2-1-2 counting for diagonals unless there is a previously unthought of, supremely compelling reason to do otherwise :)

I'm also very likely to change the Eladrin "fey step" because 1st level characters teleporting isn't something I want in my campaign. I'll see how everything fits together on release, but I'm more likely to allow it as a shift into or out of the Fey realm, thus opening up the possibility of easy planar travel to the Feywild for Eladrin and their mates (which suits my sensibilities) rather than bamfing around the battlemat :)

Cheers

I imagine them stepping in an out of the fey realm during their teleport... this would limit it somehow (you don´t exactly know if the fey realm will allow you to get where you want in the real world...)
 

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