My Game Is In Trouble :(

[KenNYC]

Would you be happy DMing a gonzo murder-hobo game for a party whose primary aesthetics of play are social?

If so, I can maybe help you. If you wouldn't, it's time to close the DM screen.

PS: I am ROTFL over here at the number of people who told you that you should switch out Caverns of Thracia for an "old school dungeon crawl" or something more "sandbox".

There is nothing more old school that CoT as you obviously know. It's very sandboxy too, but the thing that makes it the classic of classics is the more the players put in the more the dungeon gives. It's up to the players to come up with the story, it is not like the modern adventures at all where the book tells you "at the end of chapter 2 your characters should wind up at XXXXX" or whatever these books say.

It's the best adventure ever written for my money. I was hoping they would get into it and I would run Dark Tower as a follow up. Clearly this may have been a bad idea. Might be time for Tegal Manor.

And no, to me there is nothing more boring than murder hobo.

 

[Malrex]

Hey KenNYC-

After reading your last 2 posts, it's clear to me that you feel stuck. It's an easy solution when it's not with friends but I can understand that when it's with friends, things can feel more 'complicated'. But reading your last 2 posts, I get the vibe that these 'friends' are messing with you and are annoyed that you want to play a more serious game while they would rather just mess around and have a 'good time.' Your ideas of 'good time' are not meshing. Honestly, their way isn't 'wrong' (and neither is yours!!!) as there are tons of ways to play D&D, but it sounds like you are seeking something else.
Bottom line, even though these guys are your friends, you are not going to find what you seek. I suggest you keep playing with your friends and take a more laid back approach (or don't play with them)--but you NEED to find a group that matches your idea of a 'good time'. That's always easy to say, as putting myself in that situation, it would be hard to find people who play 2e, but also just the effort of it all...but that effort might be worth it in your case. If it was me, I would use the friend group to test out adventures to help me prepare for the more serious group. Hope things work out!

 

[pemerton]

It's a mess.

Sadly, that seems true.

We had another session. The backseat DM who is playing a sorcerer found a crystal ball they were told controls some sort of teleportation device somewhere. He smashed it.

<snip>

Forget the sorcerer, the lack of curiosity and total disinterest on the part of the player in anything except combat is depressing at times.

The sitcom guy found a scroll. He says "well this could be dangerous, I better rip this up!".

<snip>

the player said "I can't come back if you guys aren't going to let me play". Then the discussion later was "we can't do that to him because he will take it personally outside the game"

From your OP and this, I can't work out why these people are playing the game. Did they initiate it? Or did you suggest it? When the "backseat GM" player actually runs a game, what is it like?

Are they just wanting to play a wargame - which is one possible reading of your OP comment about ignoring traps, secret doors and clues. But then what is going on with the sitcom gnome ranger looking for berries? Does he just like being outrageous in front of his friends?

I don't see how you can make any sensible decision about whether to end the game, or change the game, or stick to what you're doing, until you work out what it is that these players are looking for from their RPGing experience.

 

[Celebrim]

Might be time for Tegal Manor...

And no, to me there is nothing more boring than murder hobo.

I have no idea why you'd flex to Tegal Manor.

So, here is what I'm getting from your stories.

1) They players have a very low trust in you. They are acting as if they are playing in a 'gotcha' adversarial game world where you will twist everything they do against them.
2) The players aren't having much fun. They are trying to create their own fun by doing zany disruptive things on purpose. I can totally sympathize with your frustration with that sort of personality. The one sort of player I can't stand is one that is always taking irrational actions that are contrary even to their own aesthetics of play. I've got this one player that clearly has the aesthetic of play of approbation - he plays to win approval from others. But his attempts to draw attention to himself are so contrary to the interests of his own character and the rest of the party, that he naturally invites scorn and frustration rather than the praise he wants. But rather than say, "Ok, I'll try something else.", he just doubles down on the behavior in a sort of false bravado of "this is just who I am". I want to just shake him, "No dude. Who you are is an insecure person desperate for approval who could easily win approval if you'd just #$@$ing use your brain to solve problems rather than create them." But, yeah, I can't do that so he' s going to continue to be a problem at the table. Seems there is always one in every group.
3) The group has the overall maturity level of a bunch of 15 year old boys. Everyone is irritated, angsty, and unpleasant, including I would guess you, because as frustrated as you are, its certainly going to come out in your play.
4) You want a very old school sandbox game with players that take the game seriously, 'step on up', and act with a lot of agency and initiative. Your players on the other hand want to relax, blow off some steam, joke around, and probably would be much happier with some sort of railroad that provides structure - even if only to have something obvious to rebel against.

So if you don't want to provide them with a game where they can indulge their evil impulses (for me, if I have 'that party', I declare an 'anti-campaign' where the only allowed races are goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and the like, and everyone is basically encouraged to play a the chaotic stupid character that they are going to play anyway), then I again ask you, is there any game which you would enjoy running that the group would enjoy playing?

 

[Nagol]

I have no idea why you'd flex to Tegal Manor.

So, here is what I'm getting from your stories.

<snip>

I agree with your 2-4. Your first point may be correct or it may be the case that the players just don't want to care. If they don't want to emotionally or intellectually invest in the game/game world and just want to sit down and blow off some steam for a few hours it would look the same.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Oof. I’m so sorry that you’re having this trouble.

In the end, I hate to say it, I think not gaming with them may be better for the friendship than continuing to game with them. I’m struggling with a similar situation with a friend that games with me, but has some problematic behavior. I know that if I continue to put up with it, I’m eventually going to tell them to knock it off. And I know that they’ll not be likely to take that well (because if they behaved like an adult, we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place).

They are my friends before the D&D so it is complicated.

We had another session. The backseat DM who is playing a sorcerer found a crystal ball they were told controls some sort of teleportation device somewhere. He smashed it. So ok, I can get a plot element out of that since it is important, but what kind of sorcerer would do such a thing? Forget the sorcerer, the lack of curiosity and total disinterest on the part of the player in anything except combat is depressing at times.

The sitcom guy found a scroll. He says "well this could be dangerous, I better rip this up!". The new guy is playing a wizard, it's such disregard for anything other than his own chaos agent nonsense. I nodded no to the wizard player and he decided he was going to have to kill the sitcom character. In the end, the person playing a cleric charmed or commanded sitcom to drop the scroll, and then the player said "I can't come back if you guys aren't going to let me play". Then the discussion later was "we can't do that to him because he will take it personally outside the game"

It's a mess.

 

[MNblockhead]

Turn D&D night into board game night with these friends. Keep going the way you are, your friendships could end up as casualties of this trainwreck of a campaign. Don't take it personally, it just didn't work out for this group.

 

[The Fighter-Cricket]

Turn D&D night into board game night with these friends. Keep going the way you are, your friendships could end up as casualties of this trainwreck of a campaign. Don't take it personally, it just didn't work out for this group.

Yeah, it's important to not take it personally that this kind of group just didn't work out. It just seems that somehow the dynamic between all of you calls for something different then D&D.
I would also suggest Boardgames as an answer! I also have some friends with whom I have a nice time playing boardgames but couldn't really imagine playing D&D. The boundaries and the social contract are much more clear in a boardgame situation, which means that everybody is more or less on the same page. That leads to less frustration for everybody (including you).

 

[Yaztromo]

They are my friends before the D&D so it is complicated.

My personal suggestion is that you just state that you feel tired of running games and that you want to rotate the role, so you play and somebody else runs the game.
Then you can just focus on having fun and let somebody else sweat. Potentially this could be a development opportunity for them too.

 

[S'mon]

They are my friends before the D&D so it is complicated.

We had another session. The backseat DM who is playing a sorcerer found a crystal ball they were told controls some sort of teleportation device somewhere. He smashed it. So ok, I can get a plot element out of that since it is important, but what kind of sorcerer would do such a thing? Forget the sorcerer, the lack of curiosity and total disinterest on the part of the player in anything except combat is depressing at times.

The sitcom guy found a scroll. He says "well this could be dangerous, I better rip this up!". The new guy is playing a wizard, it's such disregard for anything other than his own chaos agent nonsense. I nodded no to the wizard player and he decided he was going to have to kill the sitcom character. In the end, the person playing a cleric charmed or commanded sitcom to drop the scroll, and then the player said "I can't come back if you guys aren't going to let me play". Then the discussion later was "we can't do that to him because he will take it personally outside the game"

It's a mess.

Normally I would say just run Caverns of Thracia as written, stop fudging and start killing off some PCs!

I'm not really sure here because it sounds like you have borderline abusive/manipulative behaviour from your 'comedian' friend (& the backseat GM is annoying too). I don't think I would GM for someone like that; or if they were really funny/entertaining I'd GM a very light beer & pretzels game. Thracia, though very 'old school', is not light, it takes a lot of GM effort. Something similar but easier on the GM might be better, eg Dyson's Delve - https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dysons-delve-deluxe.pdf - I think would be ideal.

But really I don't recommend GMing if you're not having fun.