My Gut Reaction to Book of Nine Swords

[kigmatzomat]

Now, my question is this: Could I really integrate ToB into my game and still keep that vaguely European feel? If so, it's a solid sale. If the move version of my campaign would start to involve wire-work, then I'd rather not go there.

If you eliminate the Sword Sage (the only one with Supernatural powers) it will be fine.

The Crusader is a combat-focused paladin-variant. Many of their abilities are based on being part of a group as they give bonuses to allies rather than to the Crusader. (e.g. Iron Heart Glare, Lead the Attack, Lead the Charge, etc) They have several maneuvers that encourage opponents to attack them over anyone else, such as the one that evokes an AoO if they don't attack the Crusader.

The Warblade is not required to be as group oriented as a Crusader but can be. Warblades are everything from the Black Knight, fighting alone and shattering trees with a single sword blow, to field marshalls shouting commands and leading groups of men in mass charges.

I've read the book, done some more number crunching and changed my mind on the ToB. I personally would not recommend the ToB to be used in a game with PC Fighters as Fighters pretty much get dissed by ToB classes at all levels. I'd say Paladins might be in the same boat but a few cheap Pearls of Power keep their spells available most of the day.

However, the ToB rules are a hoot to play and can encourage teamwork (especially from Crusaders and White Raven-focused Warblades). There's nothing overtly asian at all unless you begin projecting it on the material.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I'm curious to hear a fix for the Warblade. Move action manuever recovery? d8/d10 HD?

Actually, I'd vote for fewer maneuvers in the beginning. Stances are potent but sufficiently rare. Cut the number of base maneuvers down to just 2-3, use the existing progression until ~10th level and then increase the progression rate until you hit the same number of maneuvers at 20th. It still leaves fighters in the dust at high levels, but it lets the ToB classes keep up with casters.

 

[Kishin]

Book Of Nine Munchkins.

Wow. Such a clever and insightful inclusion into this discussion. I don't know how any post is going to even attempt to approximate the depth contained in this one.

Anyway.

I personally love the book. I think its one of the best things WoTC has done with D&D, because it gives melee characters options. Fighters are to me largely boring and limited after about say, 9th level. Their tactical choices are generally limited to either attempting to achieve the most per-hit-damage they can (A task they're not even the best at) or maximizing one particular gimmick such as tripping or charging. After awhile, there isn't much left that can augment this. This was part of the impetus behind the book, according to Mike Mearls, who remembered the first 3E Fighter he played long-term, a TWF with occasional predisposition toward tripping that eventually (Around 8th level) hit a wall in terms of things that would further enhance the character's chosen path. Specialization being the key to D&D, this is pretty damaging.

IMO, the problem lies with the fact that since Feats are non scalable, 75% of Feats suck, and since the Fighter's specialty is Feats, well....

I digress, however. I don't see what's so terribly unbalancing about any of manuevers in ToB, especially when compared to spellcasters of equal level (And yes, folks, that is the basis of comparison. Manuevers are effectively spells). Manuevers are also far more limited in their range of effects than equivalent-level spells. Everyone complains about the 9th level Iron Heart manuever that adds +100 damage to an attack, but given that you're using this at 18th level, that's not really a huge jump in damage, given that it requires a standard action. At the same level, a Wizard has Wish, Gate, and several AoE Save-or-Dies from which to choose from.

As for flavor....Everything except the Desert Wind discipline and its gout-of-flame manuevers and a small smattering of other manuevers (Primarily Shadow Hand, though Stone Dragon also has one that raises a pillar of stone from the earth) are not overtly supernatural/mystical. Its fairly easy to make it fit within a campaign without upsetting the feel of the setting and turning it into Crouching Tarrasque, Hidden Dracolich.

In the long run though, your opinion of ToB depends largely on the pre-existing view of melee classes. If you think Fighters are 'fine as they are', and 'balanced/on par with casters', then you're probably going to consider the material within as overpowered drek. If you don't think this way, you're more likely to enjoy what you find within. The overall value of the book is very influenced by a person's preconceived notion of what D&D should be. (And to an extent, your familiarity with the balance of mechanics at levels of play higher than say, 6th).

 

[Warbringer]

(And to an extent, your familiarity with the balance of mechanics at levels of play higher than say, 6th).

Well, I'm very familiar with the balance of mechanics beyond 6th and beyond (exception EPiC), and I still have balance problems with the book; but then again I have the same issues with "Vow of Poverty". The second you diverge from a high magic campaign these classes are overpowered: Remaining high powered (ala FR) and the work fine.

As a "Book of Nine Swords"... love the flavor, the maneuvers (concept if not execution), and the way it is presented.

As a "Tome of Battle" it sucks, truely. A book on the art of battle should not simply focus on one style. Granted, this i only a poor naming convention.

 

[Thanatos]

So far in a test campaign I've played in, the warblade has not overshadowed the fighter or barbarian by any means. We're at 8th level at this point and so far its looking pretty well balanced. I'd say that the options the warblade has in a combat seem far more interesting then the ones for the barbarian and fighter, mechanically speaking, he has more limitations from lack of feats and ways to approach a combat then either of the two classics.

I'm playing a swordsage in the test campaign and he definitely seems underpowered compared to the warblade and crusader (though that whole random maneuver mechanic would drive me absolutely nuts)...having played a lot of monks in my time, I've really enjoyed this class. I think I'd drop the weak +1 initiative level bonuses for this class and either replace it with Improved Initiative or a 1/2 Sudden Strike progression.

I've really enjoyed this book so far. But its not for everyone -- it fits better in a high or medium magic/fantasy setting then low magic or grim n' gritty. Not all of the maneuvers are in the book have the wuxia style either, though there are plenty that do.

 

[Alceste]

I'm curious to hear a fix for the Warblade. Move action manuever recovery? d8/d10 HD?

I don't mind having other options like this available to my players. Playing a fighter is incredibly boring, and once you hit the higher levels, you either rely on magical equipment or play second fiddle to the spellcasters the whole time. Having a class that brings some thought in is not a bad idea.

Now, if I was running more Conan-themed game, I wouldn't allow Nine Swords material. But, if I was running Conan, I'd probably use True20 anyways, as D&D magic in general doesn't capture the feel I want.

The warblade's recovery method really is problematic imo. A swift action followed by a standard attack is pretty common occurance. So anytime a warblade requires a move to another opponet, they can easily reload their full arsenal. The recovery method should be at least a move action, but can not see why it would not be a full round action like the swordsage.

My other major problem is the d12. d12 hit points is way too much for a fighter type that has both skills and bonus feats. A d8 would be much more appriate imho.

 

[deClench]

This is a great book! It is *the* book I've been waiting for. It is letting me do everything I want to as a melee caharacter.

I can make all the characters I want with it. Granted that those are often inspired by wuxia and ninjas and anime, but I don't think that those are the only archetypes to come out of this. Some of the maneuvers are definitely derived from the aforementioned, but many are totally in-line with more traditional ideas. I can totally see a Conan-type warblade using Iron Heart. Those maneuvers, IMO, aren't overly "ninja-like." The beauty here is that you CAN make anything you want. Ninja, swashbuckler, samurai, "Conan", whatever.

I also don't see the warblade as broken. The bonus feat list is severely castrated from that of the fighter's, no heavy armor proficiency, most maneuvers are standard actions thereby prohibiting full-attack actions, dependence on multiple stats, can only ready 4 maneuvers...

I'm surprised to hear the lack of love for Tome of Battle. This is the first book that I've loved in a while.

 

[Elemental]

I love it too. I'd recommend that everyone complaining about how ToB is too anime, videogamey, etc read The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson, for a take on superhuman martial artists that fits right into a Western-styled fantasy setting.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

On a personal note, I can always tell the type of people who don't like japanese anime or movies like Advent Children just by these posts.

I wouldn't extend that too far - I love martial arts films and over-the-top action, and Tome of Battle is a very fun and interesting supplement in my opinion, but I loathe anime.

Of course, in my case it's not (always) the content, it's the presentation.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

My reaction was the exact opposite: Bo9S is the first book WotC has produced in a long time, perhaps since the original 3.0 core books, that has completely captivated me as thematically and systematically brilliant. It represents everything that can possibly be 'right' in D&D: over the top fantasy superheroes (at higher levels, anyway) coupled with the strict superiority of per encounter rather than per day game balance.

But then, I would wager my idea of fantasy is exactly the opposite of the OP's in basically every way...