"My hat of flight noes know limits"

[MindWanderer]

Wasn't there also a cleric paragon path that gives you wings? Or are they temporary wings that go away after 5 minutes?

 

[Intense_Interest]

I never realized being able to fly was so game-breaking. In fact, I specifically remember it being stated in the 1E DMG that anyone who was flying was essentially making a giant, blatant target of themselves, and should probably be attacked first by any enemy with any sort of intelligence, as a matter of common sense (IE if he can fly he must be powerful, so kill him first.)

It's almost painful to see such a BASIC element of fantasy (the ability to fly is pretty much one of humanity's VERY FIRST FANTASIES!) being neutered so badly in the name of some supposed, ill-considered game balance which could have been handled in a much better and less heavy-handed manner.

I would MUCH rather the game err on the side of fun and basic genre emulation than some ephemeral idea of game balance.

I'd better stop posting tonight, because for some reason everything I've been reading about 4E tonight has been making me more and more upset, and I was so looking forward to 4E even just earlier today. Maybe it's because the books are actually out in some people's hands by now and people have a more solid idea about it and the big flaws are coming out and the happy shine of mystery and optimism is wearing off, but I really hope that isn't the case.

The problem with the "Kill Him First" assumption with flight is

1- you can't assume that all possible encounters have to be balanced upon the ability to kill the flying guy when flying is not a strong genre expectation (as in a "swords are effective" and "dragons are strong" expectation)

2- preparing an entire combat round or encounter into batting down the flying character, one who most likely strongly invested into the ability, smacks of Metagaming and GM-Hate

3- Flying is a cumulative and synergistic ability; the character who is powerful enough to want to invest into flying is also going to be powerful enough to counter the anti-flying measures as well.

This isn't to say that Flying isn't chained down and unhappy in 4E. Its just that the 1E "solution" isn't a cure-all.

 

[1of3]

Magic trumps skill in D&D and every other fantasy... anything! Magic versus physics? Magic wins. Magic versus chemistry? Magic again. Magic versus logic? You guess it. That would be... um... why it is magic?

Problem is, D&D is not fantasy. D&D is a GAME that just happens to include fantasy elements.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I think now some more people are seeing why I don't like 4e. 4e magic isn't D&D magic. It may be fast, easily adjudicated, and balanced, but it belongs in another game. And bears no resemblance to the way D&D magic has worked for ooh, about 30 years.

Honestly, they were trying so hard to preserve the "sweet spot" that they created a game that feels the same from bottom to top. A large part of the whole point of going up through the levels in D&D was that as levels progressed you moved into entirely different paradigms. Instead now you've got bigger numbers, but none of the great legacy stuff from prior editions that made the game change as you climbed the XP ladder.

 

[Jack Colby]

You miss flight? Take you own advice.

"To damn bad! Get over it."

 

[Tuft]

That's strange...I've played 3.x for almost a decade now, and I have never had any problems with flight. And I could have sworn that the adventure I ran that one time, where the party explored a cloud castle on winged mounts, was a lot of fun.

I must not be doing it right.

Seriously though, any aspect of a game can be "broken" if you want it to be. Flight is no exception...it all depends on how you handle it through the story.

When I played in the City of Heroes MMO, and now that I "play" Second Life, I sometimes just love to get up into a tall building, step over the edge, start to fall, and then kick in flight as I approach the ground, zooming away among tall buildings. It's just such a great feeling....

I love to do corresponding things in a pen-and-paper RPG; frivolous, entirely non-utilitarian uses of powers that doesn't do anything other than showing that you're not in a world where you obey the common laws of nature.

Of course, in the team play of RPGs you cannot use quite the time you could with just you and your computer, but just dropping in a few sentences and then adding some silent, personal daydreaming can be just as sufficient.

And that is what I lack with the starkly utilitarian magic of 4E. Frivolous uses for magic just for fun, like levitating for the best fruits on a tree, or "Alter Self"-ing into a mermaid just to view a beautiful coral reef, or to ride the bow wave of a ship together with the dolphins...

I had a discussion about 4E with some friends the other night, and one of them somewhat disparagingly refered to what I wanted as "feelgood magic".

And perhaps that is what I want. Sometimes you don't just want utilitarianism. Sometimes, when you need it, you just want a little feelgood magic in your game, because, well, it makes you feel good.

 

[theNater]

4e magic isn't D&D magic. It may be fast, easily adjudicated, and balanced, but it belongs in another game. And bears no resemblance to the way D&D magic has worked for ooh, about 30 years.

This is why I sing the praises of the creators of fourth edition. They replaced D&D magic with a magic system that is fast, easily adjudicated, and balanced.

Honestly, they were trying so hard to preserve the "sweet spot" that they created a game that feels the same from bottom to top. A large part of the whole point of going up through the levels in D&D was that as levels progressed you moved into entirely different paradigms. Instead now you've got bigger numbers, but none of the great legacy stuff from prior editions that made the game change as you climbed the XP ladder.

I don't mind a game that changes as you climb the XP ladder. I do mind a game that makes certain characters become increasingly irrelevant as you climb the XP ladder.

Flight is an incredibly useful ability from a tactical standpoint. As such, it must be regulated in some way. This can take the form of ensuring all classes get it equally, rendering it routine, or the form of making it rare, so that it can remain impressive when it is used.

If flight is restricted to a few characters, who can use it freely, then those who are still grounded will end up feeling useless compared to the fliers zipping around, setting up sniping positions atop sheer cliffs and overcoming otherwise insurmountable obstacles. This is something the designers have been trying to avoid, and that is a laudable goal.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I had a discussion about 4E with some friends the other night, and one of them somewhat disparagingly refered to what I wanted as "feelgood magic".

And perhaps that is what I want. Sometimes you don't just want utilitarianism. Sometimes, when you need it, you just want a little feelgood magic in your game, because, well, it makes you feel good.

The basic problem with it is that any true feelgood magic with free reign will immediately become a tool for utilitarianism- Polymorph is the egregious member here.

The best answer is to have some kind of DM proxy (Intelligent Magic Item, Patron Trickster Godling, Unique Occurrence Effects) allow a player to do things that simply don't go beyond their limited sphere of influence (making the PC feel good).

 

[Sashi]

I think now some more people are seeing why I don't like 4e. 4e magic isn't D&D magic. It may be fast, easily adjudicated, and balanced, but it belongs in another game. And bears no resemblance to the way D&D magic has worked for ooh, about 30 years.

People have been complaining about it for about 30 years.

You usually play Wizards, don't you?

"At first level, the wizard is frail and weak, with little to add to the party, the fighter is the primary combatant and strikes down his enemies with terrible justice.
Later, the wizard becomes a potent ally, and the fighter acts as imposition between the wizard and those who would wish him harm, the two working together in concert are far more effective than either could be alone.
At high levels, the wizard wields arcane powers, sweeping the battlefield of his enemies and reshaping the world in his own image while the fighter stands back, sipping tequila sunrises and saving his money so his sons can go to wizard school."

Now, you're right that there's a definite paradigm shift. I hope you notice that in one of these sentences both the fighter and the wizard are awesome. And in the other two one of the party members is noticably not awesome. Just because you suck and can die if a rat bites you for max damage at first level doesn't mean you get to outshine everyone else at 20th, and just because you're the dashing swordsman and get all the chicks at 1st level doesn't mean your 20th level ability has to be "+1 to whacking things" when the other guy gets "Wish". That's the cycle of suckertude, and 4E says we don't have to put up with it anymore.

You're literally saying that one member of the party must be the other member's bitch at some point, or "it's not D&D". We are trying to end the cycle of suckerness, not fetishize it and propigate the hateful practice.

Honestly, they were trying so hard to preserve the "sweet spot" that they created a game that feels the same from bottom to top. A large part of the whole point of going up through the levels in D&D was that as levels progressed you moved into entirely different paradigms. Instead now you've got bigger numbers, but none of the great legacy stuff from prior editions that made the game change as you climbed the XP ladder.

Honestly, as a guy who plays lots of Fighters and Rogues, the way D&D has "felt different" for me is that at low levels I get to own things with my sword, and I continue owning things, until about level 8, when I start having trouble owning things with my sword and start dying a lot. If I get to be awesome at first level, and I retain that awesomeness all the way to 30th, it's just awesome with higher damage values and some new effects, I'm okay with this. It's better than being awesome at first level and slowly petering off until at some point the rest of the party just "forgets" to revive you. If the price of this is that my friend, mister wizard, gets to be awesome at first level, too, and remain so through all levels without becoming godlike, I'm okay with that, too. Just because you do not get the ability to create a tiny pocket dimension and populate it with Hayden Panettiere clones who's only desire is to serve you doesn't not mean that the game has "stayed the same" through all levels.

You may not like it, but as you've so kindly pointed out, you've already had 30 years with the Hayden Panettiere clones, it's someone else's turn to have fun. The fact that you still get to have fun being a badass wizard and it's just the power levels between you and the other classes that have been leveled makes you look petulant and whiny.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

It seems only magical flight has been nurfed. I always thought it was a tad silly anyway. low magic words run on flying creatures and air ships, don't you know.