"My hat of flight noes know limits"

[ProfessorCirno]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but flight is still there in everything but "My wizard makes everyone fly over everything." Flying ships are still there. Flying MONSTERS are still there. Flying enemies are still there. And yes, for a limited time, flying PCs are still there. 4e took what I think is a good approach here. Flight was just a massive headache more often then not.

Stop making me defend 4e, dammit! *

* NOTE: THE EXTRA SMILIES ARE HERE SO YOU KNOW THIS IS A TONGUE IN CHEEK COMMENT NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME PROBLEM WITH THESE ON THE FORUMS.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think now some more people are seeing why I don't like 4e. 4e magic isn't D&D magic. It may be fast, easily adjudicated, and balanced, but it belongs in another game. And bears no resemblance to the way D&D magic has worked for ooh, about 30 years.

Honestly, they were trying so hard to preserve the "sweet spot" that they created a game that feels the same from bottom to top. A large part of the whole point of going up through the levels in D&D was that as levels progressed you moved into entirely different paradigms. Instead now you've got bigger numbers, but none of the great legacy stuff from prior editions that made the game change as you climbed the XP ladder.

I can only disagree. Look at the Paragon Path and Epic Destinies. They give you entirely new things to do in ways that are not just "bigger numbers"

Magical Flight is not entirely gone, either. It's just a higher level power.
Rituals grant more awesome benefits as you improve in levels (from detecting Secret Doors to Raising the Dead to Scrying over the course of a ritual casters lifetime).

At first, my fear was that, indeed, with a more "formalized" way of handling powers, the magic system would become as simple and as bland as that of Shadowrun. But this just didn't happen. There are still so many "special effects" with each power that it doesn't look like it will get boring.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but flight is still there in everything but "My wizard makes everyone fly over everything." Flying ships are still there. Flying MONSTERS are still there. Flying enemies are still there. And yes, for a limited time, flying PCs are still there. 4e took what I think is a good approach here. Flight was just a massive headache more often then not.

Stop making me defend 4e, dammit! <snip>

What, you mean it is for some reason bad on principle to defend 4E?! You hater, you!

 

[theNater]

The basic problem with it is that any true feelgood magic with free reign will immediately become a tool for utilitarianism- Polymorph is the egregious member here.

This is exactly right.

The trick with feelgood magic is that it needs to refrain from interfering with combat magic. I suspect that the feelgood magic will mostly live in the rituals(for the longer term effects) and cantrips(for the smaller, quicker stuff). Light is a great tool for gently impressing onlooking commoners, for example.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

And that is what I lack with the starkly utilitarian magic of 4E. Frivolous uses for magic just for fun, like levitating for the best fruits on a tree, or "Alter Self"-ing into a mermaid just to view a beautiful coral reef, or to ride the bow wave of a ship together with the dolphins...

I had a discussion about 4E with some friends the other night, and one of them somewhat disparagingly refered to what I wanted as "feelgood magic".

And perhaps that is what I want. Sometimes you don't just want utilitarianism. Sometimes, when you need it, you just want a little feelgood magic in your game, because, well, it makes you feel good.

Unfortunately, the vast, vast majority of players, DMs, and people in general, mostly feel good when they're showing how they're more powerful then everyone else. With a really good group, it's not often a worry, but you really shouldn't base your ideals on that 5%. Plus, even that 5% can act out sometimes.

Sure, your player might think it's cool to turn into a mermaid for a bit to do some advanced snorkling, but then a sea monster attacks and that "feelgood" magic just turned your mermaid into some terrifying, multi-limbed death machine capable of strangling several sea monsters and then devouring them while using other terror bringing limbs to rescue the rest of the party and make them delicious beef dripping sandwiches - the kind with the crunchy bits on top and wonderous blobs of fat - complete with a spot of salt and pepper. And then the party bashfully inquires if they all get experience for it.

Still though. Feels good, man.

Edit: I'm hungry now. Crap.

 

[hong]

Honestly, they were trying so hard to preserve the "sweet spot" that they created a game that feels the same from bottom to top. A large part of the whole point of going up through the levels in D&D was that as levels progressed you moved into entirely different paradigms. Instead now you've got bigger numbers, but none of the great legacy stuff from prior editions that made the game change as you climbed the XP ladder.

This is where that o rly owl goes, right?

 

[hong]

I had a discussion about 4E with some friends the other night, and one of them somewhat disparagingly refered to what I wanted as "feelgood magic".

And perhaps that is what I want. Sometimes you don't just want utilitarianism. Sometimes, when you need it, you just want a little feelgood magic in your game, because, well, it makes you feel good.

That ol' black magic....

 

[Sashi]

Flight's still around, though limited. As far as I can tell, the only magic that's egregiously missing from 4E is transformational magic. If you want to complain about something, complain about that. I know it's a big headache, but no appearance changing unless you're a doppelganger? I'll probably be house-ruling some of the old effects in as separate rituals, just so I can have classic campaigns as "the king is now a bunny"

("She turned me into a newt!")

 

[Ander00]

Meh, I was hoping for at least a limited (or even very limited) form of flight for dragonborn. Heck the dragonborn warlord in DDM has something like that, just to mock me. Might have to work something out with the DM then.


cheers

 

[IceFractal]

It just seems like there's a lack of stuff to aspire to. Sure, battle your way to the highest peak of sorcerous skill, so you can ... get yet another "kill people with fire" spell. With slightly bigger numbers. Wheee.

I mean, the Archmage really says it all. "You are The Archmage, shaper of reality with powers far beyond anyone's comprehension. Such as ... using a power an extra time per day!" Yeah, whatever. It may be a useful ability, but it isn't worldshaking, and if that's what being The Archmage means, then why even bother?


Maybe I just want a bit faster progression of abilities that actually change things. I mean, I'd enjoy something like:
Heroic: Walk
Paragon: Fly
Epic: Teleport

But apparently, what we get is:
Heroic: Walk
Paragon: Walk Faster
Epic: Walk Even Faster, or Fly Slowly


And yes, you could point out that some classes never really got new and exciting abilities and had nothing better to look forward to than higher numbers. This was a flaw with those classes - not a desirable state of affairs! IMO, at least.