"My hat of flight noes know limits"

[Doug McCrae]

People have been complaining about it for about 30 years.

...

You may not like it, but as you've so kindly pointed out, you've already had 30 years with the Hayden Panettiere clones, it's someone else's turn to have fun.

Great post.

 

[Stormtalon]

Well, my reading of "10 squares off of ground" would count rooftops as being ground for the purposes of the spell (and quite frankly, I can't see it being read any other way -- too literal of a reading and flight would suddenly cease to function over water which is patently illogical), so you'd just need to find a way to hopscotch over rooftops to gain height and access to that tall tower.

Plus they're not tactical mounts -- I do remember that it stated quite specifically that they can't fight and that any damage makes them go away. I'll agree with your beef if genuine flying mounts such as griffons or hippogryphs have the 10-square limit on altitude (gotta have some way to assault that castle in the clouds), but as basic point A to point B flying transportation, these aren't so bad.

 

[Azrof]

I disagree.

Dungeons and Dragons *is* fantasy. Modern is not.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Make it a mass spell, making it crucially important to have ONE specific class in your group?

Hello, my name is "Ritual." Pleased to meet you.

4e was trying to please too many crybaby DMs who get all huffy when their adventurers can easily bypass the massive lava pit because they forgot or don't think they should have to plan for flight.

I'm actually pretty okay with that, because, yeah, it's the kind of thing you want as an option, but it doesn't need to be built into the base.

I mean, where's my detailed underwater adventure rules? It'll get here. Keep the shirt on.

 

[Aservan]

Well, my reading of "10 squares off of ground" would count rooftops as being ground for the purposes of the spell

Plus they're not tactical mounts -- I do remember that it stated quite specifically that they can't fight and that any damage makes them go away. I'll agree with your beef if genuine flying mounts such as griffons or hippogryphs have the 10-square limit on altitude (gotta have some way to assault that castle in the clouds), but as basic point A to point B flying transportation, these aren't so bad.

I don't disagree with you on any point. I don't need phantom steed to be a spell for mounted flying combat. That's why the 40+ for flight seems excessive. I also don't disagree with the buildings being fine to fly over. The problem is that in their goal of making it easier on the GM they messed up and made it harder. A five story building could easily be 55+ feet up the side. Neither the carpet or the steed can get high enough to reach the roof and "reset" it's altitude. See my problem? Maybe that is too literal an interpretation of the rules but can the two means of flight fly up the 60 foot cliff? I see flight as one of the primary ways a character deals with such challenges. It is part of the whole avoid boredom goal of 4th. Instead even an epic level character has to wait while the rogue/ranger does the climb (making like 6 rolls to do so) and tosses him a rope. Not very epic in my book. Epic rogues should be able to run up the wall or some such. That's Epic!

They should have left it alone other then restricting it to high levels. People are gonna find ways to bend the system over no matter what the designers do. It is what munchkins do. The more complex they make the system the harder it is for the non-munchkins to keep up.

 

[Imban]

Seriously, people. Cloud Chariot. Cleric 22.

Fly 8 for your entire party, no cost, effectively no duration limit, never goes away unless you want it to, no silly height caps. Why Phantom Steed is so terrible I'm not quite sure but since you need to be level 28 and pay 50k GP to use teleportation that isn't "for 25 to 50 feet" or Town Portal it kind of makes sense.

 

[SoulStorm]

When I played in the City of Heroes MMO, and now that I "play" Second Life, I sometimes just love to get up into a tall building, step over the edge, start to fall, and then kick in flight as I approach the ground, zooming away among tall buildings. It's just such a great feeling....

I love to do corresponding things in a pen-and-paper RPG; frivolous, entirely non-utilitarian uses of powers that doesn't do anything other than showing that you're not in a world where you obey the common laws of nature.

Of course, in the team play of RPGs you cannot use quite the time you could with just you and your computer, but just dropping in a few sentences and then adding some silent, personal daydreaming can be just as sufficient.

And that is what I lack with the starkly utilitarian magic of 4E. Frivolous uses for magic just for fun, like levitating for the best fruits on a tree, or "Alter Self"-ing into a mermaid just to view a beautiful coral reef, or to ride the bow wave of a ship together with the dolphins...

I had a discussion about 4E with some friends the other night, and one of them somewhat disparagingly refered to what I wanted as "feelgood magic".

And perhaps that is what I want. Sometimes you don't just want utilitarianism. Sometimes, when you need it, you just want a little feelgood magic in your game, because, well, it makes you feel good.

Tuft

Thank you for writing what I'm feeling in such an eloquent manner. That's exactly what 4th edition is lacking; the feel good magic. It's funny to, because WOTC actually created an overland flight mechanic in the game, but for some unfathomable reason decided to keep it from the PC's.

 

[theNater]

I also don't disagree with the buildings being fine to fly over. The problem is that in their goal of making it easier on the GM they messed up and made it harder. A five story building could easily be 55+ feet up the side. Neither the carpet or the steed can get high enough to reach the roof and "reset" it's altitude. See my problem?

I don't see your problem. Most five story buildings are in towns and cities. You know, places with lots of building of various heights, including four story buildings. A little phantom steed hopscotch can be good clean fun.

If a building is five stories tall and not surrounded by other buildings, it's probably a ruin or a wizard's tower with some fancy stuff at the pinnacle, in which case it might be appropriate to require the PCs to go inside to get to the top.

Maybe that is too literal an interpretation of the rules but can the two means of flight fly up the 60 foot cliff? I see flight as one of the primary ways a character deals with such challenges. It is part of the whole avoid boredom goal of 4th. Instead even an epic level character has to wait while the rogue/ranger does the climb (making like 6 rolls to do so) and tosses him a rope. Not very epic in my book.

Why is the rogue/ranger starting at the bottom of the cliff? Can't he start from the phantom steed and climb 10 feet? That doesn't take very long.

Also, cliffs tend to be somewhat irregular in shape. If this isn't something the party can go around, there's probably an outcropping somewhere that the phantom steed can use as a stepping stone.

Epic rogues should be able to run up the wall or some such. That's Epic!

I agree that a rogue running up a sheer cliff is pretty epic. Arguably more epic than having the whole party just float up it. Do we have confirmation that epic rogues can't do this? Rogues have good movement powers and theoretically will have high athletics skills(which are used for climb checks).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They promised that Dragonborn could get a feat to fly. They lied.

Or, crazy thought here, it was true at the time they said it, but since the rules were in flux, they changed after that. Sort of like anything under development can change.

Let's not accuse folks of lying without actual proof.

 

[Andor]

4. Self-propelled superhero style flight is something I can't remember actually seeing in any fantasy fiction.

Ali Baba's flying carpet.
Baba Yaga's flying pestle.
Witches broomsticks.
The party in the Hobbit flew on Giant Eagles.
In Glory Road Star cast a flight spell that flew the whole party.
God only knows how many books have people getting carted about by Dragons.
One of the mages in the Belgariad flew about in Hawk shape.
The 'Crystal Warriors' books by Willian Forstchen had a bucket load of mages with superman style flight.

I'm pretty sure this is not an exhaustive list.