D&D 4E My Least Favourite Thing About 4e is Forced Balance

[Majoru Oakheart]

FYI, the reason fire elementals have limited or no resistance to fire was that WOTC didn't want to restrict ideas for characters. And the "Fire Mage" is an archtypical one(The character who took nothing but fire powers). And they didn't want to run into a circumstance where one member of the party felt like they had to sit in a corner and do nothing for a combat(one of the design goals was to eliminate that from every happening, therefore no spells that paralyze people for 10 rounds, no save or dies, no removing people's major class defining features like sneak attack against a large class of enemies and so on). And if the party is fighting Fire Immune Fire Elementals, the Fire Mage has to sit there and watch the combat.

The other reason they gave was that they envisioned wars between armies of fire elementals controlled by different masters. And realized that the war would be kind of pointless, they'd all be completely immune to all the attacks of the other creatures.

The same thing applied to creatures in a cold environment. You'd have Yetis that have resistance to cold because they need to be able to survive in the arctic. But you'd have them hunting other creatures on a regular basis that also had resistance to cold(because they also lived in an arctic climate) meaning that most cold creatures couldn't actually hunt their likely prey. Plus, add to this the archtypical "Cold Wizard" who uses spells that manipulate the forces around him, picking up snow balls and throwing the, forming icicles on people and such. And realize that being an ice mage in the arctic was about the worst thing you could be.

So they settled on the fact that even though an attack was cold or fire or whatever, that it was still magic. And the magic part was more important than what form the magic took. Sure, a fire elemental could be immune to any normal fire. But a Fireball did more than just create a ball of fire, it created a shockwave of magic force that propelled the fire and damaged the "soul" of the creature as well.

 

[Jiggawatts]

Balance is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
Magic shall free me.

 

[Tymophil]

If a rogue goes up behind a skeleton and sneak attacks them, they get to do extra damage. This makes me mad. The Sneak Attack power represents stabbing vital bits. The skeleton has no vital bits.

Nothing stops you from creating your own skeleton with such an immunity. This is what is so good about D&D4 : you can really design monsters the way you want. So add this trait to your skeletons and play... You could also add another traits that would make the skeleton vulnerable to some power of the rogue to balance things out if you want. You don't have to though... You don't have to balance things out if you don't want to.

On the other hand, a system that would not allow to balance fun between players would not be nice. I prefer a balanced system that can be umbalanced, than a umbalanced system that cannot be balanced.

If a wizard wants to blast a fire elemental with a fireball, it works just fine. Fire elemental have no fire resistance. I think I remember a developer saying this was intentional.

Just add it as a trait. Creating monsters was painful and unrewarding in D&D3.+, it is quick and easy in D&D4.

 

[Destil]

If a rogue goes up behind a skeleton and sneak attacks them, they get to do extra damage. This makes me mad. The Sneak Attack power represents stabbing vital bits. The skeleton has no vital bits.

Blanket immunity to precision based damage for entire (popular) classes of monster is a stupid rule that couldn't have died soon enough. You're telling me a skeleton, which has basic human anatomy, has no weak points? And that you can't hit a critical gear in some sort of clockwork monstrosity that leaves it a shambling and ineffective mass of uncoiled springs and scattered gears? Sure, I'll buy that for a ghost or an animated dresser, but those rules were over reaching in general. I have no problem with individual monsters that can't be sneak attacked and I could even possibly buy it for oozes and swarms in general. But not 'all undead and constructs.'

 

[Felon]

FYI, the reason fire elementals have limited or no resistance to fire was that WOTC didn't want to restrict ideas for characters. And the "Fire Mage" is an archtypical one(The character who took nothing but fire powers). And they didn't want to run into a circumstance where one member of the party felt like they had to sit in a corner and do nothing for a combat(one of the design goals was to eliminate that from every happening, therefore no spells that paralyze people for 10 rounds, no save or dies, no removing people's major class defining features like sneak attack against a large class of enemies and so on). And if the party is fighting Fire Immune Fire Elementals, the Fire Mage has to sit there and watch the combat.

The other reason they gave was that they envisioned wars between armies of fire elementals controlled by different masters. And realized that the war would be kind of pointless, they'd all be completely immune to all the attacks of the other creatures.

The same thing applied to creatures in a cold environment. You'd have Yetis that have resistance to cold because they need to be able to survive in the arctic. But you'd have them hunting other creatures on a regular basis that also had resistance to cold(because they also lived in an arctic climate) meaning that most cold creatures couldn't actually hunt their likely prey. Plus, add to this the archtypical "Cold Wizard" who uses spells that manipulate the forces around him, picking up snow balls and throwing the, forming icicles on people and such. And realize that being an ice mage in the arctic was about the worst thing you could be.

Can't the yetis just use their teeth and for regular damage? Don't the fire elementals have access to weapons, or just slam attacks?

The big problem in 4e is that casters have a very small, prescribed "deck" of spells. You can't just memorize non-fire spells even if you know you'll be fighting fire elementals. Your repetoire is too small not to close off the use of an encounter or daily spell just because it does the wrong damage type.

Likewise, both the 3e and 4e rogue have little going for them without sneak attack.

 

[ChainSawHobbit]

If the Wizard knows they are going to be fighting fire creatures, they should prepare non-fire spells or suffer. Not every player needs to contribute equally to fixing every problematic situation. Sometimes, characters are better in some kinds of situations than others.

 

[Mark CMG]

Re: Forced Balance

Overall balance in a game system makes for a good game, forced balance at a micro-level causes homogenization of the elements of the game which is not a good thing, IMO. This is why I think the mechanics of the game need to follow the narrative elements introduced by the GM and other players.

If the Wizard knows they are going to be fighting fire creatures, they should prepare non-fire spells or suffer. Not every player needs to contribute equally to fixing every problematic situation. Sometimes, characters are better in some kinds of situations than others.

To follow up on what I just posted, I think a simpler solution is to have something on the order of an energy spell that the player can craft in the moment as dealing fire damage (or cold, etc.).

 

[kitsune9]

Forced balance was kind of an issue with me too.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Aw, just drop the flavor.

What kind of Wizard are you?

I'm a Damage wizard.

What's that?

A Damage wizard. I do damage. Not fire, not water, not cold, just ... damage.

 

[DonTadow]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a 4e hater. I like 4e enough that I am a D&D Insider subscriber. There is just one thing about the game that I really, really hate.

Forced balance.

If a rogue goes up behind a skeleton and sneak attacks them, they get to do extra damage. This makes me mad. The Sneak Attack power represents stabbing vital bits. The skeleton has no vital bits.

Sneak attack powers actually represents the rogues keen eye to see weaknesses. Skeletons have brittal bones, cracks.
However i do think still, that some things should be immune to all critical damage like oozes or things with no dicernable parts.

If a wizard wants to blast a fire elemental with a fireball, it works just fine. Fire elemental have no fire resistance. I think I remember a developer saying this was intentional.

That's just dumb design, noy to do with balance. Balance should be attack based but creatures should have weakenesses that others can exploit more easily.

When i cry for balance, i mean reasonably, that a 10th level fighter and 10th level wqizsard should be equal importance in a battle of average humans. And that there should be character build options to make some people better at killing some things than others.