My Math Fixes

KarinsDad

Adventurer
WotC made the mistake of trying to fix the math problems with feats, so that PCs that do not take the feats are effectively screwed. Unlike WotC, I want to fix this within the game mechanics so that all PCs get these benefits, not within the feat system where only the PCs who take the feats get the advantage.

1) PCs gain +1 to hit at Paragon and again at Epic level.

2) PCs gain +1 to defenses (except AC) at levels 11 (Paragon), 16, 21 (Epic), and 26.

3) PCs in Light Armor gain +1 to AC at Paragon and again at Epic level.

4) PCs in Light Armor use their primary ability score for their stat bonus to AC.

5) PCs in Heavy Armor gain +1 in masterwork bonus for each +1 in enhancement bonus. The normal masterwork bonuses do not apply.

6) The mega-to hit and defense feats in PHB II (and future sources) such as Weapon or Implement Expertise or Epic Lightning Reflexes are not allowed.


Explanations:

1) The monster's defenses go up by +1 per level or +29 from level 1 to 30. To hit goes up by +25 or 4 less. So, a slight boost of +2 to hit by level 21. The rest is picked up via synergy bonuses of additional powers and feats and paragon/epic abilities. Some people prefer the +1 per tier solution. That's probably ok too.

2) The monster's to hits go up by +1 per level or +29 from level 1 to 30. Defenses go up by +22 to +25 or 7 (never bumps stat) to 4 (always bumps stat) less. So, a boost of +4 defense by level 26. Additionally, stats could be low to begin with.

3) Light Armor has the same issue as #2. But, the house rule boost is not as great due to the ability of PCs to go from Cloth to Leather, Leather to Hide, to gain specialization, etc.

4) This already occurs for several core classes. But now, a Cleric can be in Leather or Hide armor and not be forced into Chain. Ditto for an Invoker. Some of the new classes like Sorcerers are screwed since they use a secondary stat for AC. A 30th level Soldier (+37) hits a starting Dex 16 pushed every time 30th level Sorcerer in +6 Starweave Cloth (AC 40) on a 3. The player had a high secondary stat and pushed the stat every time and still gets hit by a same level creature on a 3. This house rule pushes this to 4 (in this example, but could push it from a 2 to a 4 with a starting 14 Dex). House rule #3 pushes this to a 6. Getting Leather Armor pushes it to 8, etc. Still easy to hit, but not near automatic. Note: I understand that nobody will take Chain with this house rule, but nobody wanted to be behind the curve with Chain anyway. Clerics were screwed from day one. Chain is like Cloth. Nobody really wants it and it's just a pain that it's in the game system. But, I can see a DM not wanting this house rule.

5) Heavy Armor is the only armor/defense that is balanced at certain levels, it just has a step function problem (i.e. going from +3 heavy armor to +4 jumps the AC of the PC by 3 and again from +5 to +6, it's not a smooth function which means the PC gets hit more often for many levels until they acquire the super armor). The core magic/masterwork jumps are: +1, +1, +1, +4, +1, +4. I'm just changing it to: +2, +2, +2, +2, +2, +2. The reason WotC added the masterwork concept is that they had to boost AC for PCs that did not add in an ability score modifier, but this is not a balanced way to do it. A 17th PC can get hit on a 5, put on +1 better armor and then only get hit on a 9. That's too big a jump for +1 better armor.

6) Epic Lightning Reflexes, Epic Great Fortitude, and Epic Iron Will are +4 that stacks with everything. I am effectively doing the same +4 with house rule #2, but no 3 feats required, just to balance it out. The Expertise feats add +1 per tier, but I think +1 per tier is too much, so I have house rule #1 instead.


Btw, one thing that bothers me about this. I wrote to WotC in 2007 after the 4E announcement telling them that I would be happy to check their math. I said that I would put together Excel spreadsheets and show them exactly where they might have problems at all levels. They ignored my letter.

It ticks me off that they refused help to identify problems with their math and they still have such serious flaws. I'm not bothered that they did not have me do it, who cares who did it? I'm bothered that they didn't do it themselves or have someone do it for them, even after being warned that it could happen. After all of their assertions that the math now works at all levels pre-release, they still screwed up.

Guess all "the math now works" talk pre-release was just that. Talk. They should have actually sat down with the real numbers instead of just talking about it.

High level is pretty grindy and uses up a lot of heals, just because the PCs have a harder time hitting and an easier time getting hit. Their design goal of speeding up the game totally fails at high Paragon and Epic levels.

I don't think that the odds at high level should be the same as low level due to how many options players have. Creatures should be slightly harder to hit and PCs should be slightly easier to hit without the PCs using up resources. But they shouldn't be off by 4 to 7. That's just plain flawed. -2 is a better amount to be off at high level. Losing 5% to hit and/or defense every 4 to 5 levels is a bug.

And, it's ok for PCs to make up this -2 with feats or powers, etc., even to the point that it is +1 or +2 afterwards. Monsters at high levels have many hundreds of hit points. It's ok to be hitting 50% of the time at level one and 60% of the time at level thirty using resources, just because the monsters can hack it.


Want another example? Look at a Tarrasque. It has a defense delta of 17 between Fort and Will. That's just plain bad design. One PC's attack almost never works and another PC's attack almost always works. Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

The rest of the splat books will now have a bunch of "temporary fix" feats for this such as "If you hit your foe with xyz attack, you are +1 to your next attack", etc. But, this type of fix fails. If one has a hard time hitting in round one, they will rarely get the boost in round two. It doesn't address the real problem.
 
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So...

Non-demigod Fighter in hide armor keyed off Str at 30th: AC 10 (Base) + 15 (Lvl) + 8 (Str) + 3 (Hide) + 2 (MW) + 6 (Enh) + 2 (Heavy Shield) + 1 (Spec) + 2 (Your New Rule) = 49
in scale armor: AC 10 (Base) + 15 (Lvl) + 7 (Scale) + 6 (MW) + 6 (Enh) + 2 (Heavy Shield) + 1 (Spec) + 2 (Your New Rule) = 49

That seems an insufficient separation... heavy armor can invest in plate at the cost of check penalty and speed and feat... and people in light armor can just have a higher stat (up to 2 more, putting it out of reach of heavy)
 

Fwiw, I think it might be better to just not base AC on a stat at all than to base it on your highest stat.

This rule also makes chain pretty bad at low levels, since say a cleric would gain AC and speed by using hide instead of chain, unless the chain were a higher enhancement.

Thinking hypothetically for a moment, I think I'd want hide and chain to be on par assuming that hide had some investment, leather should be 1 worse, cloth 1 more worse (the 2 gap for leather, with leather having no prereqs, leads to all casters in leather... which is pretty anti-dnd). Scale and Plate can probably stay as they currently are, relative to chain.
 

I'd say while fixing level 30, make sure you don't get some unintended behavior at level 1.

A dragonborn barbarian with 20 strength and hide would have AC 19 at first level. This doesn't jive right for me.

Battleragers also gain a point or two of AC at low levels, upgrading from Chain to Hide.

The more I think about it, you may as well be removing chain and scale armor from the game at low levels because hide armor will always be better with one 18 stat.

I think your rule #4 is the most problematic one.
 

So... diverting slightly away from the fix for a moment. How far off base is the following as a statement of goal?

It would be better and a more optimal play experience if a normal monster needs...

8 to hit Cloth
9 to hit Leather
10 to hit Hide or Chain
11 to hit Scale
12 to hit Plate

+2 if it's a Brute, +1 or +2 if target uses a shield, -2 if it's a soldier or artillery
 

I'd say while fixing level 30, make sure you don't get some unintended behavior at level 1.

A dragonborn barbarian with 20 strength and hide would have AC 19 at first level. This doesn't jive right for me.

Battleragers also gain a point or two of AC at low levels, upgrading from Chain to Hide.

The more I think about it, you may as well be removing chain and scale armor from the game at low levels because hide armor will always be better with one 18 stat.

Yeah, I was thinking about changing it to best of: Dex, Int, or best secondary stat, or dropping it completely.

I think your rule #4 is the most problematic one.

Probably.

I was trying to fix the Sorcerer, but, we don't have a Sorcerer in our group, so I'll probably drop it.


And, rule #5 is basically on page 197/198 of PHB II, so I can drop it too.
 

So... diverting slightly away from the fix for a moment. How far off base is the following as a statement of goal?

It would be better and a more optimal play experience if a normal monster needs...

8 to hit Cloth
9 to hit Leather
10 to hit Hide or Chain
11 to hit Scale
12 to hit Plate

+2 if it's a Brute, +1 or +2 if target uses a shield, -2 if it's a soldier or artillery

Personally, I think the system should have been something like this in the first place. I'd just drop Hide. The issue is that people would rant and rave about why Dex never came into play.
 


I guess...I don't understand what the issue is here...the monster's **should** be tougher than the heroes...that ensure that there is a challenge and chance of death. The fact that the party has access to extensive healing resources, group tactics, scaling power strengths, action points, epic destinies, etc.

They also have circumstance bonuses that monsters often don't have, like those granted by the warlord / cleric / bard in the party that aren't factored into the base "math" which is really simply comparison of defense versus attack.

So...I appreciate the effort I'm just not sure that this does't take the homogony of the system too far.

DC
 

Sure - what sources of improved defenses do the party have from powers and tactics? Ie, ways that Orcus' Touch of Death won't drop a 30th level wizard to 0 about 95% of the time (Fort 35 if he invests a feat or improves Con a bit) - and Orcus is a Brute and has _horrible_ accuracy with that attack. Let's call it 85% cause Orcus is marked - 95% still if the wizard didn't take the feat.

Necrotic Burst, of course, will hit 95% of the time even if Orcus has a -5 penalty to attacks from something somehow (and there aren't more of those at high level than low - if anything you end up with less of them since people use at-wills like Enfeebling and Illusory Ambush less often)
 

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