My mild frustration - an evil party

[Thornir Alekeg]

If this is only a mild frustration, first off I would talk to the players about it. Let them know that you are not opposed to an evil party, but that they ahve been crossing a line that is making things less fun for you.

After that I would probably try and see if I can make the game interesting because the tables are turned. I would not let them off for being PCs (I think someone already mentioned this). Let them feel they are always on the run, watching over their shoulders.

If you are trying to pull them back some, do the characters have backgrounds with people they care about? What if family members are run from their homes or taken hostage, locked up or even killed because of their relation to such evil characters. Or have family members try and appeal to them and make the stop.

 

[Stormborn]

Ah yes, we call this "Going to the Belgian Congo" : when players totally misinterpet clues and directions given by the GM go completly off the map, taking the campaign to places it was never intended. Come from a CoC game we played, where the PCs literally went to the Belgian Congo after misinterpreting a clue (we were supposed to go through a mystic circle to an ancient artic city.) Seems it happens almost every mystery game we play, regardless of the DM.

You have been given enough advice on this issue, I think. In the end it comes down to: what do YOU want to do? Are you going to have fun running this campaign? If not then you wont be doing your players any favors by keeping it going. I think I would try to adapt my storyline, throw in some of the suggestions above (Good NPC party comes gunning for them, obviouslly evil bad guys want them to join up, etc.) for a while at least. If after a session or two I was still leaving frustrated it would be time to talk it out. Maybe even start something new.

 

[molonel]

I ran in an evil campaign for three years. We ran, using a slow-as-molasses XP drip, from 1st through 21st level. The one thing I can say with complete confidence is that evil-oriented campaigns are not for everyone, and a DM who doesn't want to run a campaign of that sort should NOT. In the immediate future, it won't be fun for the DM, and in the longterm the campaign will NOT be as fun for the players, either.

Our DM ran a preachy universe. All our evil plans always fell apart. Nothing ever really worked. Nobody worked with us. People stabbed us in the back, even to their own detriment. After a while, it just flat-out denied logic and common sense. We were just destined to fail: period, game over, no exceptions.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun, let me tell you.

Looking back, there was nothing wrong with the players. We made it very clear the sort of campaign we wanted to run. The DM should have either (a) said no, and we could have come up with another campaign idea, or (b) run it the way we asked.

No DM should ever run a game they don't want to run. But if you agree to run it, then run it. Everybody should have fun, and "everybody" certainly includes the DM, since he or she ultimately puts the most individual effort into the game.

However, having said that, a DM should have the courage to state what he or she will and will not run. Once you are committed, then do it to the best of your ability.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you don't like it then stop.

But your PCs sound alright to me even though they are evil. You can still run a campaign, I've ran a great evil game before. Try giving it a shot, your PCs sound pretty interesting.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The PC's were framed for a crime they didn't comit. And rather than become the A-Team (Krusk, you can be B.A. Baracus!) they became more like some supervillain.

So make them pay. They're on the run from the crime, and they are committing more crimes in the process. It's carte blanche to do whatever they want, right? At least until they start attractign the attention of outsiders, authority figures, crusading paladins, noble dragons, the 'good guys.' This could be an opportunity to throw all those good-aligned creatures in the MM at them the way you throw goblins and beholders at a normal party.

Though for now they can get away with it, unless they go into hiding, they'll be apprehended...and while they may be acquitted of the particular crime, they will be convicted for thousands of others....

Your PC's are evil. You prolly know that you can't MAKE them be good. No matter how often you try to punish them for being evil or reward them for being good. But instead of starting over, roll with it. Instead of HM Murdoch, you've got Vigilante Steve, the Halfling of Doom. Play with this side of the axis for a while, see what new torments you can heap on them.

And then make sure to tell them next time that they need to be heroic.

 

[Sylvan]

Give them hints and then crush them

I run into this once in a while and its quite discouraging whenthe PC's start doing evil acts and twisting the story around. I typically start steering the pc's in the good direction. Some of these steps work right away, some of them continue on until the painful end. Its important to distinguish between those who want to play evil games and those who want to disrupt the session.


Step 1
Reactions from npc's and important encounters start going south. As some have suggested, their reputation will start to spread. Hints about a bountyhunters, vengeful family members and heroes looking to make a name start showing up. As one person stated give them the "visual" on what they are doing.

Step 2
A group of good aligned npc's show up and launch a well planned attack on them. They wait until they are asleep, study them for days (especially if they are in a city) or after a especially nasty encounter that has the NPC's weakend. The problem is these are young, relatively low level npc's and the party, even wounded or ambused should take care of them fairly easily. The NPC's might get a lucky shot in or catch someone asleep but once the party is up and running, they should easliy overcome them. I am assuming the party will kill them outright and not take any prisoners. The PC's discover a journal dipicting some of their past attacks and evil actions, Wanted Dead or Alive posters etc. This starts one chain of events.

Step 3
If they do something really reprehensible and worthy of note for the dark gods -give them some recognition. Dark Gods reward evil in the same way the good gods do. Only these gifts may be more visual. If they are waton slaughter's (which it sounds like they are) One of them grows razor sharp talons, or the ability to drain blood or something -but its a visible "change" in how their charecter looks and feels.
Most of the time parties tend to get weirded out and start backpedaling other times the party jumps deeper twords evil.
Either way, their new dark masters expect them to continue their ways.

Step 4
The chain of events started in step 2 start to get nasty. Big brother of the ranger they killed is pissed, or perhaps the mages master learns of his promising apprentices death. Perhaps just mommy finds out (they were young adventurers) and she goes to the proper authorities and gets things running. PC's start getting indications that someone out there is looking for them. Most players tend to ignore the history of the NPC's they kill.
Even worse some infamous bonuty hunters (not do gooders but the Clint Eastwood shoot-em-all type) might take them on.


Step 5
The visible gifts are impacting how they interact in cities, villages and whatnot. The party has difficulty engaing in trade, buying potions and scrolls so they must go underground, slipping deeper into the evil underbelly of whatever world they are in. Evil people aren't nice and they learn that when the potions are mislabled, or in some cases poisoned or they work but they are the "generic type" working less effectively. If they pc's kick and push around guild members they can quickly find themselves sucking down a potion vial full of green slime rather than a potion of healing. If they interact with these people, that is the quickest way for paid informants of step 4 get a location on them.


Step 6
Encounter with a group of do gooders of their power level. This can go either way, and the do-gooders are a mix between "we will take them prisoner" and kill them all. The do gooders seek to bring them to justice for the most part.
If they survive they are again rewarded in some fashion by the loot but more importantly the dark lords who have given them the gifts of evil.
If they don't the party and campaign is over


Step 7
"The PC's Out" A powerful lone and myterious individual takes the party down. Rendering unconsious and incapacitating the party
This is a pretty heavy handed step and I have used it only when I really want the party to continue the game.

One game the party was staying at an inn. They fell into a deep sleep and all woke up with a scroll on their chest, dipicting what transgressions they have made and the outcome of serving evil is. They are invited to meet this person in a place of his/her choosing. They accept or refuse.
If they accept, they go through a ritural of some sort with an antonement and a geas or other powerful magic to set the campaign back on track.
They usually receive some sort of gift or power for their choice

If they refuse, the lone figure is never seen again.

If they attack or otherwise deceive the lone traveler, ALL hell breaks loose and typically its the end of the game.

I have used step 7 twice in 15 years. The first group took the geas, and now served the cause of good. They played up the whole "former evil" party and it turned out to be a source of good roleplaying for the rest of the campaign. they even used their evil reputation to infiltrate a evil cult/cabal. The game was littered with encounters with the plots and servants of the dark gods that once they served

The other time, the party accepted, and planned to ambush the lone stanger. (Who of course is powerful and intelligent enough to expect this) The party showed up, and attacked him. As they attacked him, I stated "The dark and cloaked figure seems to morph and change shape, his cloakexpanding and shaping into wings, his skin becoming scaled and shimmering gold in the moonlight. The look of their faces when I plopped a Gold Dragon miniature on the table will live forever. Thier party torn to pieces.

Step 8
Effectively the PC's have to contend with greater and greater challenges, NPC's bounty hunters and family members, racking up XP if they scucceed and ending the campaign eventually if they don't. The key here is to not take everything so personally. Sure the fact that your campaign got messed up is bad, but I have just as much fun watching the "evil campaign" develop as I do my own ideas. I had one game last for over a year of sessions. They died together is a very nasty dungeon who's denziens and traps didn't care if they were evil or not.

You just have to remember that they are here to play a game and have fun, not fufill your storyline and meet your expectations/

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PC's were framed for a crime they didn't comit. And rather than become the A-Team (Krusk, you can be B.A. Baracus!) they became more like some supervillain.

Heh. This basically happened to me in a one-shot I ran recently.

Two of the players, in the course of three sessions, looked at the CN on their sheets and said "Yeah... that's not really right," and changed it to CE.

It was probably about the time they killed the eleven-year-old street urchin with the giant shovel and arranged the scene to make it look like the ogre zombie gravedigger had gone berserk... "because he might have seen us".

But to be fair, he was about the only innocent bystander the PCs killed. Everyone else the PCs offed was pretty much scum. But the PCs didn't kill them beacuse they were scum... the PCs killed them because they were irritating, or because they got in the way, or whatever.

Their being scum and gutter-rats did protect the PCs from the consequences of their actions, to an extent, though, because they didn't draw the law down on their necks...

The game was hilarious, and lots of fun... but I don't know I'd want to DM those characters in a long-term campaign.

-Hyp.

 

[Chimera]

Well, a simple issue to raise with the players is...

How do you replace dead PCs in a group of violent criminal paranoid homicidal maniacs? Just how does someone else come to suddenly be a part of this gang???

So if there is no Raise Dead available and one of the PCs dies, that's pretty much it for that player, isn't it?

Other than that, yeah, like everyone else has said, consequences. You can make it like a horror movie where there are no cops, no law, no consequences, or you can think reasonably and do the bounty/price on their heads/NPC good guys routine...until they're dead.

And hey, if you mix the two and the group slowly gets whittled down, one by one, it'll sure up the ante, won't it? When the group is down to two or three, how badly do you think they'll be shaking, knowing that this can only end in death, hunted by everyone? Great lesson for all involved.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

If you don't like it then stop.

Exactly.

To me, it sounds like your players want a different game than the one you do. They've made these fairly interesting characters which they seem to enjoy playing, and they're making the in-game decisions that they want to.

And if that's a game that you are seriously not enjoying running, then you need to stop. I'm leery about trying to force them to play their characters differently, for one thing; if they wanted to play them differently, they would.

I also think you'd hate imposing "realistic" in-game consequences on them just as much as you hate running the game already, because obviously, you're not all that interested in a game about scummy, desperate characters who won't stop at anything. Punishing those scummy, desperate characters doesn't change them, and it's not going to stop the behavior at all. It'll probably encourage it, in fact; the more dire the punishments looming over them become, the more ruthless their characters are likely to get.

So what else, really, are you left with? Your players seem to be enjoying the opportunity to wallow in a little evilness, and you don't want to run a game where wallowing in evilness occurs. It's better to just call it quits and start an entirely new game (nothing at all to do with this one), and this time make it clear to 'em that they can't play heartless, despicable people.


Or, y'know, take the second half of Aust's advice, and just try and go with it. Think of it as your Scorcese tribute game, all about the seamy underbelly of your gameworld. Give the PCs opportunities to show how far they'll go to protect themselves, and remember the cardinal rule of noir fiction: the bad guys don't always get punished, but they hardly ever get what they want, either.

--
i personally think those kinds of games are fun, but mileage variance exists
ryan

 

[molonel]

I also think you'd hate imposing "realistic" in-game consequences on them just as much as you hate running the game already, because obviously, you're not all that interested in a game about scummy, desperate characters who won't stop at anything. Punishing those scummy, desperate characters doesn't change them, and it's not going to stop the behavior at all. It'll probably encourage it, in fact; the more dire the punishments looming over them become, the more ruthless their characters are likely to get.

I agree. As someone whose DM tried the "This universe doesn't like evil people, so change your ways!" approach, I can say with complete confidence that it sucks. That whole 8-step to scaring players into running good characters frankly made me a little nauseous. For God's sake, a little clear communication can save both sides a lot of trouble and frustration.