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My new Skill list (feedback needed and appreciated!)


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Nyaricus

First Post
Kisanji Arael said:
*chuckle*

Looks a little sparse, Nyar.
Oi! many revisions have been taking place. Just a little bit after I posted this, my buddy came over and he started to take apart my skill list, so I had to go back to the drawing board, and right now I don't have the time to go through it all, so we're looking at this weekend to get'r all up and running :D:p

cheers,
--N
 

Kisanji Arael

First Post
Sounds like fun; I'll pencil you in. I'll be glad to criticize and give my little tips. As always, it'll be a pleasure examining your work.

But what's the theme of your work? As in, for what overarching goal are you making revisions?
 

Nyaricus

First Post
Kisanji Arael said:
Sounds like fun; I'll pencil you in. I'll be glad to criticize and give my little tips. As always, it'll be a pleasure examining your work.

But what's the theme of your work? As in, for what overarching goal are you making revisions?
I'd say the main idea is definitely to get rid of 3 skills which do the same thing. Decipher script/forgery, hide/move silently, spot/search, etc. Also, I'm taking a very critical look at the Knowledge and Perform skills and I'm going to be seriously cutting them down to size, and fixing things I really thing need fixing. Here's a spoiler for my Knowledge skills:

  • Knowledge: Arcana (INT) is for Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft checks. Used for info on Dragons, Constructs, Elementals and Magical Beasts.
  • Knowledge: Astronomy (INT) is for Knowledge: the Planes checks. Used for info on Aberrations and all Outsiders.
  • Knowledge: Cryptography (INT) takes over both Forgery and Decipher Script.
  • Knowledge: History (INT)
  • Knowledge: Nature & Geography (INT or WIS [depends]) is for Animals, Plants, Oozes, Vermin, Giants, Fey. All uses of the Survival skill now fall under it.
  • Knowledge: Medicine (INT) is for all Heal checks, for which I've swapped out D20 Modern's Treat Injury skill.
  • Knowledge: Politics and Laws (INT) Nobility, Royalty, etc.
  • Knowledge: Races and Cultures (INT) is for Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.
  • Knowledge: Religion (INT) is for info on Demons, Devils, Angels, Celestials (etc, you get the drift) and Undead.
  • Knowledge: Trade, Antiques and Artifacts (INT) is for Appraise checks.

Also, here are my Perform skill list:

  • Perform: Act
  • Perform: Dance
  • Perform: Percussion Instruments
  • Perform: Sing & Oratory
  • Perform: String Instruments
  • Perform: Wind Instruments

Are all the same, save for Comedy got folded into Acting, Oratory and Singing are now the same, and Keyboard Instruments got folded into String Instruments (which they are). Oh, and Disguise gets mixed into Perform: Act (and usually to succeed on a disguise, you'd need good ranks in both Perform: Act and Persuade: Convince, but more on the latter later :p:cool: )

I'd appreciate any feedback on what's there right now, in any case. Those won't change :)

cheers,
--N
 

Nyaricus

First Post
More thoughts here....

My own thoughts are thus: Perform is good and fine the way I've changed it. I have the two Trio's of the performing arts: the triple threat (singing, acting and dancing) and the three traditional types of instruments, so that's all good. Also, since Acting already includes Comedy, is there really a need for distinction? And where, specifically, is Perform: Drama if we have Perform: Comedy? Might as well wrap 'em up all into one, methinks.

For Knowledge, I'd love a better name then 'Races and Cultures', but we'll see how she goes. For the knowledge skill, I did research on school curriculums to get the basis for the areas of knowledge. Adding in a bit of D&D flair, and some skills which fit the requirements and needed to be on the list (Arcana, Appraise, etc) I finally came to that list above. I know Politics and the Law don't really have anything associated with it, but that sort of thing (along with History) are so essential to nations world-wide that I think that alone gives it merits to be on the list. I'd like to add in Mathematics and the Sciences (perhaps as one skill?) and possibly move Craft: Alchemy over to Knowledge: Alchemy, but if I could get some feedback on those last two, that'd be awesome :D

cheers,
--N
 

Set

First Post
Nyaricus said:
I'd say the main idea is definitely to get rid of 3 skills which do the same thing. Decipher script/forgery, hide/move silently, spot/search, etc.
I go with;
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics
Listen + Spot = Notice (which also covers sensing things via taste, touch or scent)
Hide + Move Silenty = Stealth

Search remains it's own skill, as I see Spot/Listen as immediate / instinctive things and Search as more the CSI-type, 'we're gonna break down the room by quadrants and find that darn hidden loot!'

Forgery is just another Craft skill, IMO, and Use Rope just goes away, along with Use Pencil and Use Fork. The presence or absence of rope is simply a circumstance modifier for Escape Artist, Climb, Profession (sailor, lawman, slaver, teamster), etc. checks, IMO. It's not a skill.

Also, I'm taking a very critical look at the Knowledge and Perform skills and I'm going to be seriously cutting them down to size, and fixing things I really thing need fixing. Here's a spoiler for my Knowledge skills:

  • Knowledge: Arcana (INT) is for Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft checks. Used for info on Dragons, Constructs, Elementals and Magical Beasts.


  • Spellcraft should be the application of magic, while Knowledge (arcana) is the study of magic. A non-spellcaster, such as a Monk or Rogue, could learn Knowledge (arcana), but only a spellcaster should be able to learn Spellcraft.

    That being said, I'm not sure Spellcraft is *needed* as it's own skill. Wizards use it to recognize spells being cast, in preparation for counterspelling them. A Rogue should be able to recognize a spell being cast, since that sounds like a Knowledge (arcana) role, even if he couldn't do a thing to counterspell it (although he could decide whether or not it's worth using an AoO to try and interrupt it, depending on what he's figured out).

    If a Spellcraft roll actually allowed a spellcaster to do something magically, perhaps affect his own spells via weak metamagic-type effects, or not damage an ally, or push it to a higher save DC with a great roll or something, then yeah, he'd be *crafting* his *spells,* but the written uses of Spellcraft don't really seem to do anything that Knowledge (arcana) couldn't cover. He's not 'applying' anything. Even if a Spellcraft check were to be used when the spellcaster is trying to cast a spell under adverse conditions, the skill would have some appropriate use, but no, that's a Concentration check!

    In a house-ruled game where a spellcaster had to make a skill check to cast *any* spell (sort of like the Truenamer from Tome of Magic or Psychic from the Complete Psychic Handbook), then sure, Spellcraft would have a purpose, but, as written, it really doesn't.

    [*]Knowledge: Astronomy (INT) is for Knowledge: the Planes checks. Used for info on Aberrations and all Outsiders.
    [*]Knowledge: Cryptography (INT) takes over both Forgery and Decipher Script.
    [*]Knowledge: History (INT)
    [*]Knowledge: Nature & Geography (INT or WIS [depends]) is for Animals, Plants, Oozes, Vermin, Giants, Fey. All uses of the Survival skill now fall under it.
    That's a little too broad, I think. Geography and 'Naturalist' should perhaps be different skills.

    [*]Knowledge: Medicine (INT) is for all Heal checks, for which I've swapped out D20 Modern's Treat Injury skill.
    Having Heal be Wisdom based instead of Intelligence based always seemed like a 'gimme' to the Clerics, since they use Wisdom as a prime score. I like this idea.

    [*]Knowledge: Politics and Laws (INT) Nobility, Royalty, etc.
    [*]Knowledge: Races and Cultures (INT) is for Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.
    [*]Knowledge: Religion (INT) is for info on Demons, Devils, Angels, Celestials (etc, you get the drift) and Undead.
    [*]Knowledge: Trade, Antiques and Artifacts (INT) is for Appraise checks.
Knowledge (trade) is also a pretty neat idea.
 

Kisanji Arael

First Post
Ok, I have work soon, but my first thought is that singing and oratory are very different, and oratory could lend itself well to diplomacy.

Edit: If you need more reason for separating singing, think about riddling, rap, poetry, etc. The spoken word involves a certain amount of improv and adjustment based on the audience, whereas singing involves honing one's voice to produce certain kinds of sounds, and usually involves repeating songs already known to the speaker.

The raconteur and the chanteuse both use metre and their larynx. That is all they have in common.
 
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Turanil

First Post
My own radically compressed skill list is :

Acrobatics: DEX, (Balance, Climb, Tightrope walking, Tumbling, Escape bonds)

Athletics: STR, (Endurance, Jump, Swim, Bend Bars, Break Doors, Move heavy objects, etc.)

Deception: CHA, (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Scams, etc.)

Healing: WIS, (First Aid, Treat Injury, Surgery and HP-recovering potential)

Knowledge: INT, (choose one of the five following specialties)
1) Knowledge: Mundane (local + geography + history + heraldry + culture + etiquette, etc.)
2) Knowledge: Arcane (spellcraft, use-magic-devices, etc.)
3) Knowledge: Religion (various faiths, planes, etc.)
4) Knowledge: Nature (flora and fauna, survival, tracking, etc.)
5) Knowledge: Military (enemies' usual strategies, armies' organizations, engineering of war-machines and castles, etc.)
6) etc.

Language: INT, (Read and Write own language, + one additional language per Int bonus point.)

Manipulation: DEX, (Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Pick Pocket, Use Rope, Disable Device, Remove Traps, etc.)

Notice: WIS, (Search, Spot, Listen, Smell, Taste, limited Sense-motive, etc.)

Persuasion: CHA, (Diplomacy, Gather information, Bargaining, Intimidate)

Profession: INT, (Merges together craft, profession and perform. Choose one activity such as Weaponsmithing / Carpenter / Juggler / Musician / Mariner / etc. This skill is the ability to craft / practice / trade / etc. the chosen activity, then to make a living from it, assess if others do it well, etc.)
1) Profession: Merchant (assess mundane items' approximate value and determine if unusual/rare items are junk or high quality, know where and to whom sell the item for best profits, etc.)
2) Profession: Smuggler (streetwise, merchant of illegal things, black market, etc.)
3) Profession: Robber (Innuendo/thief's cant; determine what's best to steal in a hurry; where to search, etc.)
4) etc.

Riding: WIS, (Ride + Animal handling of mount species)

Stealth: DEX, (Hide, Move Silently)


It is meant to be used with the alternate UA rule on skills, because with normal skill-points anyone could quickly become proficient in everything. In any case, I made this list based on d20 but for another game not d20.
 

Asurya

First Post
ôÔ

that's quite something here, Turanil
you realise that you compressed more than eve SWSE did? (and I found Saga already did a heavy use of the merging tool)
I like your wrapping of multiple uses in an generic Profession skill though, it does not change a thing balance-wise but make thing clearer. :hat_down:
on Healing and Stealth I totally agree too.

if only one need change, your Know.[arcana] is way too powerful: UMD is known to be one of the (if not THE) best skill available out there, and Spellcraft is very useful too (dispel, counterspell, assess encounter), wraping them together is no brainer :\

[edit (reread your lists)]
Manipulation is too all-inclusive too. on a second thought, Manipulation could be fine, depending on the campaign.

Notice on the other hand, should be enough with only the senses (Spot/Listen/Smell), letting Search for another use (Profession[Detective]?)

another question: do you keep the extra use of the skills various splatbooks give (I'm not talking about feat, just "new use for old skills")? Because if so, Acrobatics (which is potent) become really nasty: you can move 10ft as a 5ft-step with Tumble DC25 and you can use Balance to negate Trip (opposed roll) and Tremorsense (DC20(not so sure about the DC) to stand perfectly still) :\
[/edit]

I understand it's for a specific use where not anyone can have it, but, I would burn a feat slot without a second though just to hav access to one of these branches
 
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Sadrik

First Post
Here is what I would be using if I was DMing our group right now. We are currently playing by the book and it is painful. Getting 2 skill points per level +1 for human and several of them are automatically spoken for. Rough. This list I came up with has altered some by the announcements of some of the 4e skills. I for instance would have gotten rid of a couple of more of them (initiative)

Perfect Skill List
1. Acrobatics [DEX] (jump, tumble, balance, escape artist)
2. Act [CHA] (bluff, disguise, perform act, perform comedy)
3. Alchemy [INT] (appraise, craft and repair potions, poisons, antidotes, alchemical items, craft alchemy, profession herbalist)
4. Arcana [INT] (appraise, craft and repair magic, arcana, spellcraft, id dragons, planar creatures, and constructs)
5. Athletics [STR] (climb, swim, break doors, burst ropes, encumbrance)
6. Build [INT] (appraise, craft and repair buildings and structures, architecture and engineering)
7. Craft [INT] (appraise, craft and repair most things, craft items, arms and armor)
8. Diplomacy [CHA] (diplomacy, perform oratory)
9. Dungeoneering [INT] (nature, handle animal, survival but for underground, id animals, plants and oozes)
10. Finery [INT] (appraise, repair and craft fine things/art- including forgery)
11. Heal [INT]
12. History [INT] (history, local, nobility, royalty, id a religion, and humanoids)
13. Insight [WIS] (sense motive)
14. Initiative [DEX]
15. Intimidate [CHA]
16. Language [INT] (speak language, decipher script, id a language)
17. Music [CHA] (perform musical instrument, perform sing)
18. Nature [INT] (nature, handle animal, survival, id animals, plants and fey)
19. Occult [INT] (religion, id undead, and lycanthrope)
20. Perception [WIS] (spot, listen, search)
21. Pilot [DEX] (profession sailing)
22. Ride [DEX]
23. Stealth [DEX] (hide, move silently, sleight of hand)
24. Streetwise [CHA] (gather information, local)
25. Thievery [INT] (appraise, craft and repair traps, open locks, disable device)

Concentration (class ability)
Profession (gone)
Use magic device (class ability)
Use rope (gone)
 

Afrodyte

First Post
Nyaricus said:
I'd say the main idea is definitely to get rid of 3 skills which do the same thing. Decipher script/forgery, hide/move silently, spot/search, etc. Also, I'm taking a very critical look at the Knowledge and Perform skills and I'm going to be seriously cutting them down to size, and fixing things I really think need fixing.
OK. That makes it easier to help. When redoing skills, I try to keep this in mind:

Skills are what characters DO, not what they have

The more you see skills as actions and not as objects/subjects, the easier it is to figure out what belongs where.

Here's a spoiler for my Knowledge skills:

  • Knowledge: Arcana (INT) is for Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft checks. Used for info on Dragons, Constructs, Elementals and Magical Beasts.
  • Knowledge: Astronomy (INT) is for Knowledge: the Planes checks. Used for info on Aberrations and all Outsiders.
  • Knowledge: Cryptography (INT) takes over both Forgery and Decipher Script.
  • Knowledge: History (INT)
  • Knowledge: Nature & Geography (INT or WIS [depends]) is for Animals, Plants, Oozes, Vermin, Giants, Fey. All uses of the Survival skill now fall under it.
  • Knowledge: Medicine (INT) is for all Heal checks, for which I've swapped out D20 Modern's Treat Injury skill.
  • Knowledge: Politics and Laws (INT) Nobility, Royalty, etc.
  • Knowledge: Races and Cultures (INT) is for Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.
  • Knowledge: Religion (INT) is for info on Demons, Devils, Angels, Celestials (etc, you get the drift) and Undead.
  • Knowledge: Trade, Antiques and Artifacts (INT) is for Appraise checks.
I'm ambivalent about most Knowledge skills. As it stands, they can be really useful or completely for flavor. I don't mind flavor, but it needs more oomph. Currently, a couple of classes dominate with Knowledge skills, while others don't get much even if it's appropriate.

There are a couple of ways to handle this. You can adapt every class's skill list and add fitting Knowledge skills. You will also have to note exceptions to classes that have all Knowledge skills as class skills. Or, you can redo the skill list to account for these bodies of knowledge while giving them to appropriate classes. It all depends on what you like. For the moment, I'm going under the assumption that you want these types of skills to be more useful and distinct from each other.

So, for Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Cryptography, Knowledge: Medicine, and Knowledge: Nature, I'd simply make them the following skills: Arcana, Investigate, Medicine, and Nature.

With the others, I'd ask: What do PCs do with that knowledge?

Also, here are my Perform skill list:

  • Perform: Act
  • Perform: Dance
  • Perform: Percussion Instruments
  • Perform: Sing & Oratory
  • Perform: String Instruments
  • Perform: Wind Instruments

Are all the same, save for Comedy got folded into Acting, Oratory and Singing are now the same, and Keyboard Instruments got folded into String Instruments (which they are). Oh, and Disguise gets mixed into Perform: Act (and usually to succeed on a disguise, you'd need good ranks in both Perform: Act and Persuade: Convince, but more on the latter later
K. I've said it somewhere else, but performance should probably have more to do with some of the other social skills. At least consider synergy bonuses if applicable.
 

Afrodyte

First Post
I forgot: my own list

Granted, this was for a quasi-4e game I'd be interested in running. The uses for each skill is by no means exhaustive, but you get the idea.

Arcana (Int): learning spells, creating spells, using magical objects
Athletics (Str): climbing, jumping, swimming, running
Concentrate (Con): push your limits despite pain and/or distraction, focus your mind to aim better
Craft (Int): make and appraise smaller non-mechanical handiworks (like jewelry)
Empathize (Wis): discern personality/nature, understand motivations, predict behavior
Heal (Int): treat injury, poison, and disease; diagnose illness, poison, or cause of death; create poisons
Impress (Cha): inspire, intimidate, motivate, captivate
Investigate (Int): find clues, solve riddles, create and decode cyphers
Language (Int): speak, read, and write another language; figure out the meanings of an unfamiliar language based on the ones you already know
Larceny (Dex): conceal things, pick pockets, open locks, slip out of bonds
Lore (Int): apply knowledge of history, culture, philosophy, religion, literature, and art
Nature (Int): survive in the wilderness (any non-civilized environment), identify plants and animals, navigate
Observe (Wis): notice things with five senses and/or intuition
Persuade (Cha): negotiate, lie, cheat, seduce, debate/parley
Smith (Int): create and appraise larger non-mechanical handiworks (like weapons)
Sneak (Dex): hide, sneak, shadow
Streetwise (Wis): navigate civilized areas, make and work local contacts, uncover local rumors, get hard-to-find items, determine if something is legit or stolen, buy and sell on the local black market
Tinker (Int): fiddle around with mechanical objects (like traps and locks)
Tumble (Dex): flipping, cartwheeling, somersaults, tumbling, contorting, balancing

I'm not sure how to handle Perform and Profession skills, if at all. In practice, it seems that Perform and Profession skills can be folded into other skills. Maybe feats could add some specialization or something.
 

Triangleman27

First Post
My list

Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble)
Alertness (Spot + Listen)
Animal Handling (unchanged)
Arcana (Spellcraft + Use Magic Device)
Athletics (Swim + Climb + Jump)
Concentration (unchanged)
Craft (unchanged)
Deception (Bluff + Disguise + Forgery)
Empathy (Sense Motive with broader uses)
Expression (Perform with broader uses)
Heal (unchanged)
Intimidation (unchanged)
Knowledge (unchanged)
Language (Speak Language + Decipher Script)
Larceny (Sleight of Hand + Escape Artist)
Mercantile (Appraise with broader uses)
Persuasion (Diplomacy + Gather Info)
Profession (unchanged)
Ride (unchanged)
Search (unchanged)
Security (Disable Device + Open Lock)
Stealth (Move Silently + Hide)
Survival (unchanged)
Taunt (need to work on this to avoid Diablo 2 comparisons)
Technology (For Steam-punk settings)

I don't tie anything into Abilities but rather let the player use whatever Ability modifier fits the situation. Feats and magical effects give bonuses to checks, not skills. Anything involving movement, stealth or fine motor coordination takes an armor check penalty. Bubye Use Rope.

Pardon the White Wolf influence :heh:
 

Jackelope King

First Post
My own list from a heavily modified, point-buy d20 homebrew-in-the-works:

Also note that there is no Knowledge skill: anyone can use Intelligence to modify any ranks they have in any skill to modify knowledge checks pertinent to that skill (so to answer who won the 1980 World Series, you could make an Athletics check, modified by Intelligence instead of Strength). The profession skill has similarly been removed, and turned into a feat which grants a bonus to a few specific uses of different skills associated with a profession (it also works well with people who have low intelligence and skill ranks, but a seemingly encyclopedic knowledge about what's going on in the tabloids).

Strength
* Athletics- Climb, Jump, Swim
* Might- Lift, Carry, Grapple

Dexterity
* Acrobatics- Tumble, Jump, Balance
* Infiltration- Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently
* Reflex- Initiative
* Vehicles- Ride, Pilot, Land Vehicles, Sea Vehicles

Constitution
* Fortitude- Save-turned-SWSE-style Defense
* Endurance- Force-march, go without food or water, stay awake for long periods of time

Intelligence
* Academics- Search for clues, liberal arts knowledges (business, civics, history, etc.)
* Science- Medicine, Life Sciences, Physical Sciences, some craft
* Technology- Electronics, engineering, computers, craft

Wisdom
* Expertise- Akin to spellcraft, but applicable to many different disciplines (such as martial arts, undead hunting, etc.)
* Perception- Spot/Listen/Sense Motive turned into something like a SWSE Defense, with search thrown in as an "active" use
* Survival-Traditional survival skill broken into chunks according environment (desert, forest, urban) and mixed with Gather Information (re-branded "reconnaissance")

Charisma
* Art- Perform, disguise, craft (artwork)
* Persuasion- Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate based on Rich Burlew's interaction modifiers
* Will- standard d20 will save turned into a SWSE-style Defense

Combat (not modified by any ability score)
* Defense- Good ol' Armor Class, lost when flat-footed (can be supplemented by Uncanny Dodge to maintain some ranks when flat-footed)
* Weapon Group- Attack bonus, taken for individual subsets of weapons
* Toughness- Hit points become a toughness save which becomes a SWSE-style defense
 
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Nyaricus

First Post
Heh, I love how every thread I make in House Rules turns into a WDYD? thread :D Man, you guys are awesome, but now I have so much more to think over in regards to skills.... :heh:

cheers,
--N
 

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