My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[billd91]

It is metagaming because it is the avoidance of one game rule by the use of another unrelated game rule.


So, you think it is ok for ALL spellcasters to say:

"I use my move action to wave my arms as if casting a spell, just to be sure there are no archers out there. I then use a standard action to cast the spell."

For a readied archer, does he shoot on the move action (which emulates spell casting), or on the standard action (which is the spell casting).

I don't think it's metagaming at all. The character isn't using his move action to try to bluff out an attack and thus protect his standard action. He's actually casting a spell that happens to use a different kind of action, and in many cases, losing that spell. That seems pretty fair to me and not that unlike a pump fake in football or, even better, lobbing one ball in dodgeball and following up with a zinger on the target as he starts to dodge the lob.

I don't see this as being much different from a fighter using a feint action (particularly if he has the feat to allow it on a move action). He's just using a different action type allowed to certain spells to do it. I'd let him do it. He'll have to keep his cantrips all tied up to do it, he'll draw plenty of attacks, and it won't protect him from AoO if he still tries to cast while threatened for his standard action.
Kudos to that player for his cleverness.

 

[RuminDange]

This is no more meta-gaming than you as the enemy archers readying attacks against spell casters and aiming at him. Is he the only unarmored PC? If so, then maybe a good disguise self spell to look like he is wearing armor is a good idea, so there is no reason for the enemies to target him as a spell caster in the first place.
First off, if his character has an Intelligence of 20, this makes good sense. He’s got a super genius character in a world where tactics and planning are used extensively. He has come up with an idea to help cover his good spells in battle by accepting a few hits from casting a minor spell. Bad idea on taking any hits but still better than wasting your good spells on a possible concentration check going bad.

You also approved the spell research, you let him have the spell and then you took it away because it disrupts your readied actions. Frankly doing that would have been enough for me to walk and find a new game if that is the only reason to remove the spell. It sounds like you are doing everything to disrupt the character’s abilities and he came up with a way to counter that. You should reward not punish.
Do you ready actions against fighters moving to attack or other characters doing their standard action or ability? If not than the constant targeting spell casters with readied action could be seen as unfair or prejudice against the player or spell casting characters.

If the idea of disrupting your readied actions by taking a chance at getting hit for casting a swift spell to draw their fire doesn’t work, what are you going to do when he takes Leadership and gets himself a Monk cohort to stand by and draw the fire by acting like a spell caster since he is also unarmored and no one without spellcraft would or should know the difference. That would be something I would do playing a highly intelligent wizard getting shot at everything I go to cast a spell.

The player’s idea of the actual spell may have been immature, but your reaction to the countering of NPC readied actions is far more immature.

No offense meant, but sometimes it might be best to step back and look at the game from other angles to make sure you as the DM are being fair and letting the players have fun and use their character's abilities, and let them counter you once an while, let it be a challenge to come up with new tactic to challenge them with.

RD

 

[KarinsDad]

My issue with this is that I don't see how he gains any advantage.

The advantage he gains is that he gets his spell off uninterrupted. He never loses the spell.

The archers gave up their attacks on him in order to perform ready actions (i.e. they sacrificed something). He then turns around and says "No, no, no, you cannot ready on me. I will force you to use up your arrow shots first, then I will cast my spell safely.".

If there were no readied action in the game, it would go:

Archer 1 attacks, archer 2 attacks, wizard casts and the wizard may or may not take damage before casting his spell.


With both archers readying, the sequence should go (because they gave up their actions in order to possible set it up):

Archer 1 readies, archer 2 readies, wizard casts and may get hit twice and may have his spell disrupted

or

Archer 1 readies, archer 2 readies, wizard does something else and archers lose their attacks


There should be no way in the game to preempt the archers readying actions AND still get a 100% chance of getting the spell off safely. The entire intent of the ready action in the game is for the Wizard to take a chance if he wants to cast his spell when archers are aiming at him. This tactic bypasses the normal possibilities and gives the Wizard a 100% chance of getting the spell off. The readying of the archers is irrelevant if this tactic is possible.


That is the advantage the Wizard gains. And, it is sometimes a huge advantage to ensure that a given spell goes off. What is 12 points of damage from the archers (if they both manage to hit) compared with 30 points of damage each (or 15 if saves made) if the Wizard is 100% guaranteed to cast a Fireball against 6 archers?

 

[Zephyrus]

If he starts to get that agrivating.. hit them with things that cause continuous damage or have a chance to disrupt spellcasting in later rounds as well... Beam the guy with a Thunderstone and blind or deafen him or shoot him with alchemist fire or alchemy arrows. Lets see him cast a spell while he's on fire!! These are things that enemies can use on anyone to great effect. the Thunderstone being primarly for caster's but the fire great for everyone. have a wizard or rogue with UMD Smack em with a Hidious Laughter spell or grease the area. Have him get his priorities straight... and just for kicks... throw a pit trap here and their at em or have a spell that creates a pit trap under a character... feather fall.. then figure out a way out of the hole! of course he cant target anyone except anyone that is above the hole!

Alchemist Fire, Thunderstones, Smoke Sticks, etc... dont have to be a caster to use em. I'm sure theirs an Itching powder or similar 'distracting' thing out their... I think their's a spell called Buzzing Bee which interfear's with a caster's ability to cast spells. And Complete Adventurer has a number of wonderful Mage-Slayer stuff.

Edit: Ohyah.. and dont forget Whisper Gnome's and Silencing Strike (expecially with Improved Feint to make sure you get your sneek attack)

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Definitely meta-gaming.

The first time is funny and clever. I would probably smile and say "Okay, your trick worked. You faked out the archers since your INT: 20 character guessed there common tactics. But it only worked because it was weird and clever on your part."

However, from a roleplay perspective, it makes no sense. Since when did wizard's come with the mental discipline to stand in front of a firing squad and provoke their attacks with a weak spell... and then within the same two seconds have the mental resolve to cast another spell.

Maybe once because it's cinematic and cool and adds to a story. But two times, three times, four times. That's just a player trying to beat the system.

It's not so much a tactic the follows the rules as it is one that exploits them. It really makes no sense that you could cast an instantaneous spell like the finger, or featherfall, and then in the same two seconds, which is about the time these arrows are being flung at you, you somehow are now free of concentration checks.

I'd rule that once he's attacked, all spells done that round, not just the one arrows attempt to interupt, get interupted. After all... that's what the archers are trying to do. Interupt the spell caster. By that interpretation of the rules, he can't be casting spells freely in the same round that arrows are being flung at him, regardless of if he draws their fire with a wave of his hand or whatever else.

Imagine if you read this in one of the Forgotten Realms Books:
The great and powerful Elminster stood before his line of foes. He know that the demons were readying themselves... they would not attack until he summoned his powerful searing light upon them. And then... they would attempt to stop him with their dark powers. But... Elminster had a clever plan. He would trick them first with a stupid spell... and then cast a bigger spell one second later... right in the middle of three dark fireballs that just leapt from the demons' mouths... as if now he was less capable of being distracted than before...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I ready an action to disrupt a caster when he flaps his arms like a chicken. (Read: Somatic Components)

Of course, the somatic component for this particular wizard's Fireball spell is actually rolling the sulphur and guano together (can be done in advance), using it to mark a quick arcane rune in the air, and then pointing at the place he'd like the fireball to explode, so the archers don't get to shoot. They're readying for an action that never occurs.

I ready an action to disrupt a caster when he reaches into his bag of mold. (Read: Material Components)

Unfortunately for the archers, this particular wizard keeps his Fireball components in small glass vials in a bandolier. So they don't get to shoot, either.

I wouldn't think you'd need Spellcraft ranks to understand the concept of spell components.A smart player will eventually figure it out. Until then, keep him guessing.

This doesn't work, I don't think, because the game rules do not specify exactly what the Verbal, Somatic, or Material components are - merely that the spell has them. Moreover, recognizing a spell as it is cast *requires* use of the Spellcraft feat, meaning that even if you have the spell currently memorized, you can't recognize your opponent casting the same spell.

This leads me to believe that one wizard's Fireball isn't identical to another's - sure, they both do Fire damage, but the way in which the spell is cast differs - sometimes wildly.

So, unless your archers have some training in recognizing spells (Spellcraft skill) or have a lot of intelligence about this particular wizard (i.e., lots of scouting), then what you're doing is setting up a situation in which the NPCs get to act the way they do because the DM says so, not because of any in-character logic.

 

[diaglo]

archer fires and then retreats if he didn't take down the wizard.

or ducks behind cover.

or just moves.

the archer can still act.

he has just moved his position in the init order by readying.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

LMAO Doc... my point exactly

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the rules support the fact that you cannot ready an action against a Quickened Spell.


You can be distracted during an action that takes 1 round or more. You can be distracted during an action that takes, well, an action to complete. You cannot be distracted during an action that takes a free action / a swift action / an immediate action.

Thanks for posting that.

I could have sworn it was a rule, but when I tried to find it in the SRD, I couldn't.

That's good for the original poster. The rules prevent the readied arrows from firing when the spell caster casts the Screw U spell, and they then fire when he casts his real spell.

Kudos.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Admitedly, the DM using this tactic continuously may be metagaming in itself as well, since they conceivably would not be well-versed in magic spells or wizards.

However...

In certain cases, it would still make sense. If the attackers knew they were chasing after a party with a known wizard, it is entirely plausible that you could ready those archers to interrupt said spell. I doesn't matter that me, Bob the Barbarian, doesn't understand magic gestures. I think I'd be able to make a reasonable guess, assuming I had an int of 10 or 12, that the guy wearing the robes, holding a staff, or maybe nothing at all, doesn't carry a shield... and oddly enough, when he sees us doesn't take cover.... I think I'd make a good guess that there be my wizard when he stands there, concentrating in the middle of combat while Jake the Fighter and Jack the Ranger are fiddling with weapons instead.