My player submitted this class to me

[Brazeku]

The class, in and of itself, is not imbalanced. It gets a smallish selection of spells that it can use a modest number of times, in combination with fair combat ability. If anything, the focus split between those two elements makes it somewhat inferior to either in a system which rewards specialization.

However, factoring in scrolls, the class's applications widen dramatically - with a small money investment, suddenly the class has wizard-level versatility.

Why not simply say that the class uses its magic by drawing upon internal force of will, which works under a different principle than casting from scrolls - so they can't draw arcane power out of scrolls? Simply barring access to that (say, regardless of multiclassing) would probably curb any power concerns.

 

[Flamewarrior]

The class, in and of itself, is not imbalanced. It gets a smallish selection of spells that it can use a modest number of times, in combination with fair combat ability. If anything, the focus split between those two elements makes it somewhat inferior to either in a system which rewards specialization.

However, factoring in scrolls, the class's applications widen dramatically - with a small money investment, suddenly the class has wizard-level versatility.

Why not simply say that the class uses its magic by drawing upon internal force of will, which works under a different principle than casting from scrolls - so they can't draw arcane power out of scrolls? Simply barring access to that (say, regardless of multiclassing) would probably curb any power concerns.

For ensuring it isn't good? Seriously, it just does what the wizard does, without actually good feats, and spending extra cash on scrolls.

 

[Pyrex]

Will I need to post in every friggin' D&D forum I'm a member of that this class isn't even good enough?

Are you serious?

Look, it doesn't have the slightest casting versatility,

Y'know, except for Shades, Wish and the rest of the 7th-9th level arcane list. AFAIK, there are *zero* WotC-published classes with 3/4's BaB, d8 HD and access to the full 7-9th level Sor/Wiz spell lists.

its class features are nonexistant,

Except for Armored Casting and more bonus feats than Wizard you mean?

and medium BAB doesn't synergize with anything this class has: it's good for sneak attack, it's good for wildshape, it's good for martial strikes (of some disciplines), but it isn't even for a cleric (who functions off divine power, in truth), much less for a (nerfed) wizard.

It has a *better* BAB than Wizard, virtually guaranteeing it'll never miss a Touch attack and you think it's still not good enough?

This isn't a *nerfed* wizard. It's a wizard who has been way *buffed*. Sure, he's trading some versatility (he knows about two fewer spells per level than an equivalent Sorcerer); but he's doubling his HD, increasing his BAB and gaining armored casting out of the deal.

 

[airwalkrr]

Why is it player-created classes are always way too powerful? Have players no restraint?

 

[Flamewarrior]

Airwalkrr: coming from the guy who considers the MH marshal too strong, I can only say you're wrong, by reasons explained above and below. On a marshal that doesn't suck, BTW, look here.

Are you serious?

Yes.

Y'know, except for Shades, Wish and the rest of the 7th-9th level arcane list.

Even if this was wholly true, it'd say nothing about most levels, and said spells always make the caster function as a lower-level character (by eating spell levels in the conversion). Besides, whatever you can figure to do with those, a wizard's doing better, and they synergize in no way, shape or form with the (overrated) BAB.

AFAIK, there are *zero* WotC-published classes with 3/4's BaB, d8 HD and access to the full 7-9th level Sor/Wiz spell lists.

Meaningless. If something exists, there's no need to reinvent the wheel; so, it stands to reason that the best design space's the unexplored one - what matters' whether it can be balanced, which's what you should discuss with other arguments (not that you aren't doing so, of course - it's just that this particular one's void). And this is from Unearthed Arcana.

Except for Armored Casting and more bonus feats than Wizard you mean?

Greater mage armor (and low-level, easily expendable spells are easily better than armor properties). And don't compare reserve feats to metamagic/creation; if they actually were on the same power scale, I'd be much happier with the class (hence me pointing Sequestral Feats on the previous post's link).

It has a *better* BAB than Wizard, virtually guaranteeing it'll never miss a Touch attack and you think it's still not good enough?

Last I checked, wizards didn't miss touch attacks anyway - if anything, this is a (not so great) help with actually picking up a weapon. Anyway, you'd have to figure which touch spells are better than battlefield control, or save-resisted effects.

This isn't a *nerfed* wizard. It's a wizard who has been way *buffed*. Sure, he's trading some versatility (he knows about two fewer spells per level than an equivalent Sorcerer); but he's doubling his HD, increasing his BAB and gaining armored casting out of the deal.

Not really. Knowing less spells than a sorcerer makes one the suck, unless and until substantial other stuff's given. Of the benefits, 2 hp/level border on irrelevant for the most unhittable of all fighting methods (full arcane spellcasting), and light armor's easy to emulate. The BAB is indeed a noticeable improvement, but needs support from something else to be impacting in physical combat.

Upon checking the battle sorcerer, I did notice one issue: this guy'd end up knowing 4 level 9 spells, which actually's a HUGE improvement over the battle sorcerer; I'd recommend using the battle sorcerer's spells known table (lower everything in the sorcerer by 1, to a minimum of 1), to cut down on that. I mean, that, along with the improvements I previously suggested.

 

[Nifft]

AFAIK, there are *zero* WotC-published classes with 3/4's BaB, d8 HD and access to the full 7-9th level Sor/Wiz spell lists.

Pyrex, meet the Battle Sorcerer (from Unearthed Arcana).

Of course, that's pretty much all they get.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Ah, I see it's already been mentioned. Oh well.

 

[Flamewarrior]

Long time, Nifft! Direct questions: do you think the battle sorcerer's just fine as-is, and whaddya say about my suggestions on this class (which'd essentially be the battle sorcerer as I think it should've been, in the end)?

 

[Nifft]

Long time, Nifft!

Yo.

Direct questions: do you think the battle sorcerer's just fine as-is

Yes. Battle Sorcerer is a decent step up for a Sorcerer, and it's a fine archetype for a magic-user who also hits stuff. IMHO the class could just be called "Elf".

Anyway, the Battle Sorcerer as-is works fine. It's balanced, and a bit stronger than the core Sorcerer. But it's still on the weak end of balanced. You could throw in four bonus feats -- say, at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels -- and it'd still be just fine.

and whaddya say about my suggestions on this class (which'd essentially be the battle sorcerer as I think it should've been, in the end)?

Which in specific? They're not immediately obvious, sorry.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flamewarrior]

That'd be it.

I think that an actually decent quick fix would be: go over the reserve feat list and boost them until taking one isn't a shame (you might take some inspiration from here, if you use psionics and are willing to pull the - few - bucks, as it's a great book, with feats better made along the same concept), allow quick cast to be applied to spells (not necessarily of highest level), and, at some point after the 10th, make reserve feat use be always a swift action, without cost.

Upon checking the battle sorcerer, I did notice one issue: this guy'd end up knowing 4 level 9 spells, which actually's a HUGE improvement over the battle sorcerer; I'd recommend using the battle sorcerer's spells known table (lower everything in the sorcerer by 1, to a minimum of 1), to cut down on that. I mean, that, along with the improvements I previously suggested.

And, while I agree the battle sorcerer's on the weak side of balanced, I actually consider the sorcerer better, because it's better BAB doesn't really interact with the rest of the class, without the help of something like quick cast, while the sorcerer just gets more of its main weapon (versatile enough for the class not to need much else, even not being the wizard).

 

[Nifft]

I don't think using Reserve feats as Swift actions is balanced. Sorry. Think of Reserve Feats as the crossbow in your Cleric's backpack, or the spare Composite Longbow Mighty +2 that your Barbarian inherited when the Ranger got an upgrade. They're not worthless at all, IMHO; particularly if most of your spells go to self-buffs or battlefield control, and you use the Reserve feats for direct damage.

BAB is a very nice thing to have. If your game allows wraithstrike, you have your golden attack routine right there. The 3rd attack is gravy, but it's delicious gravy. Having +5 points of BAB to dump into Power Attack is the real treasure.

Rays aren't always trivial to hit with, and if you're going to be restricting the spells known as much as a Battle Sorcerer does, you have to be fairly sure your few tricks are likely to work. Sure, everyone knows to use them against Huge giants and dragons, but the Battle Sorcerer can use them against nearly everyone -- and he has to, if that's what he has for spells.

There's at least one very nice Swift action self-buff Reserve feat already.

Cheers, -- N