My player submitted this class to me

[Flamewarrior]

Well, most of it isn't really so divergent from my thoughts, but the part where I really do disagree is "reserve feats as direct damage". I was talking specifically after the 10th, and we both know hp doesn't scale linearly, which makes pure direct damage increasingly worthless even when it does scale - think about 6d6 as a standard action in an EL 11 encounter. Worse, in the case of this class: it knows so little spells that it can't even be guaranteed to be able to make all reserve feats function at peak potential.

 

[Nifft]

Nah, by that point the Sorc/Wiz isn't relying on direct damage anymore. There's a reason people love fireball but don't care for cone of cold -- and that reason is timing.

At 10th level, I'd expect him to have a combo like wall of force + Force Needle (Reserve feat). So he'd have a great battlefield control spell, and also the ability to hit people with 5d4 Force damage at will. Pretty much a free magic missile, but you have to roll to hit, you can crit, and it ignores SR. That's not shabby in the least.

Two levels earlier, he could have done the same sort of thing with wall of fire + Fiery Burst (Reserve feat). And he can make better use of Storm Bolt & Winter's Blast than a regular mage, because he doesn't mind being close to melee.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Pyrex]

Pyrex, meet the Battle Sorcerer (from Unearthed Arcana).

Of course, that's pretty much all they get.

*nods* So they have.

*ponders*

If you take away the Quick Casting and Bonus Feats the Battle Sorcerer & Battlemage start to look pretty similar.

 

[Elemmakil]

I'm not actually sure that this is very overpowered. Slightly, maybe, not not very. Compare it to a conventional Gish build, for an example: it has slightly higher CL but way fewer spells, slightly lower BAB, and no really good abilities. Armored casting is nice, but not game-breaking, and you can get that anyway. Lots of reserve feats are kinda meh: one reserve feat is nice, but, particularly with the low number of spells known, it's not great. I don't find using the reserve feats as a swift action any more powerful than spontaneously quickening a few low-level spells.

I would cut down on the number of reserve feats so that you're choosing which feats you get, rather than which feats you get first. I might change the swift use of reserve feats to 1/encounter, perhaps still with the per-day limit, to prevent novas.

 

[Flamewarrior]

Nifft, I can understand that that's sorta good when nobody's optimizing. Point (in part) taken (but it does need wraithstrike to be actually good).

Elemmakil: the point of reserve feats' being at-will, and I see no way a 11th-level mage'd use one with their standard action. BTW, "reserve feat nova" <<<<< archery, so I don't worry.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, I can understand that that's sorta good when nobody's optimizing. Point (in part) taken (but it does need wraithstrike to be actually good).

You don't have to like Reserve feats -- or think they're strong enough -- but this guy seems to like them, and want a class focused on them. So all I'm looking for is a way to make him a workable character that won't suck. If he were in a group where optimization was an issue, I rather suspect he wouldn't bother with Reserve feats.

IMHO Battle Sorcerer delivers -- the Sorcerer has the best tactical regarding reserve feats, since a single uncast spell-slot can power multiple feats. He can do his thing all day long, and lay down some smack when conditions require.

Hmm, let me try building one of these guys and see how he turns out. Pudding, alcohol content, container relationship, etc. I'm going to allow all Reserve feats, and all spells in the SRD + Dragon Magic, just because it's next to me right now, + the few I remember from the Spell Compendium.

Human Battle Sorcerer + Reserve feats at 5, 10, 15 & 20
Str: 13, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 8, Wis: 10, Cha: 15
Skills: Bluff, Concentration
Weapon of Choice: Longsword
1/ BS 1 -- Power Attack, Cleave -- Color Spray
2/ BS 2 --
3/ BS 3 -- Improved Initiative -- Benign Transposition (Spell Compendium)
4/ BS 4 -- Str +1 -- Scorching Ray
5/ BS 5 -- Fiery Burst (bonus reserve feat) -- Grease or Ray of Enfeeblement
6/ BS 6 -- Empower Spell -- Haste, color spray -> Silent Image
7/ BS 7 -- Chill Touch, Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) or Glitterdust
8/ BS 8 -- Cha +1 -- Firestride Exhalation (Dragon Magic), scorching ray -> See Invisibility or Mirror Image
9/ BS 9 -- Dimensional Jaunt -- Alter Self, Suggestion or Heroism
10/ BS 10 -- Invisible Needle or Storm Bolt or Touch of Healing (bonus reserve feat) -- Wall of Force or Lord of the Sky (Dragon Magic) or Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords (Dragon Magic)

Yeah, looks playable, even before 5th level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flamewarrior]

Totally playable - I just want any class to be something that doesn't require Nifft not to suck. If he likes reserve feats, I want him not just to do stuff, I want him to be able to do stuff that matters, with the widest possible freedom of choice. And worse, while I can't order you to make the full build (up to 20), I can say: whaddya do with the damage-dealing reserve feats after 10th? I want them as swift actions to prevent them from becoming wasted feats at higher levels, because I'd just not try to kill anything CR 15 (best case, mummy lord cleric, 97 hp) with, say, 8d6 (maximum 48, just half that). When the attack deals maximum damage against the weakest monster to the attack and it doesn't even do over 50% of the job, I can't feel like requiring a standard action.

P.S.: to be playable before the 5th, you need just one thing - color spray; that isn't the hard part of all. My worry's what the hell you do in the late game with the feats you used a lot before.

P.P.S.: of course, he likes it, and that's why I want it to be good, instead of having him "suck it because it's cool" - not that I'm accusing you of this attitude by any means, but it's sufficiently common to deserve mention.

 

[Nifft]

The Reserve feats aren't there to beat equal-CR monsters. That's not something you should be able to do all day without cost. They're fine for plinking away at equal-CR monsters while you are on the run, but really they're so you can avoid wasting spell-slots when fighting mooks. Reserve feats are less useful vs. boss monsters -- but that's fine. So is Cleave.

Also, nearly every class needs a competent build to be competent. I could make a Fighter who sucks from level 1 on up, and a Sorcerer who would be a nightmare to play. The only class that'd be hard to really nerf would be the Druid, because Wild Shape doesn't depend on any particular ability scores or feats to work reasonably well.

In this specific case, color spray is better than it usually would be for a Sorcerer or Wizard, since this dude isn't as squishy. The normal 1st level Sorcerer or Wizard is very unhappy if some of the goblins resist -- this dude is happy he's cut down his immediate number of foes, and lays some smack down on the ones who remain.

- - -

I was looking at higher level spells. There's one 7th level spell that has all 4 major energy types (fire, cold, electricity and acid; it's in Dragon Magic; there's presumably something similar in Spell Compendium). Glorious Master of the Elements is the name, and it is a flexible 7th level attack spell, but more importantly it can power all four energy attack Reserve feats.

For his last 10 levels, let's see. At 11th level he gains a 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell...
Level 2 spell: Glitterdust or See Invisibility or Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) or Mirror Image
Level 3 spell: Suggestion or Heroism or Fireball
Level 4 spell: Polymorph

12th level -- Minor Shapeshift (reserve); (spell swap? don't need alter self as much)
Level 6 spell: Greater Heroism, Greater Dispel Magic or Mass Suggestion (none of which benefit his reserve feats)

13th level...
Level 4 spell: Dimension Door
Level 5 spell: Wall of Force or Lord of the Sky (Dragon Magic) or Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords (Dragon Magic)

14th level: (spell swap? Don't need firestride exhalation any more.)
Level 7 spell: Glorious Master of the Elements (Dragon Magic)

15th level: Two Reserve feats which we don't have yet: Invisible Needle, Storm Bolt, Winter's Blast, Acid Splatter, Force Blade, or Touch of Healing.
Level 5 spell: Baleful Polymorph
Level 6 spell: One of the above spells, or Disintegrate

16th level: (swap Baleful Polymorph?)
Level 8 spell: Polymorph Any Object

17th level:
Level 7 spell: Limited Wish or Plane Shift, depends on the campaign.

18th level: (open feat; swap spell?)
Level 9 spell: Gate or Shapechange, depends on the campaign.

19th level:
Level 8 spell: Mind Blank or Prismatic Wall, depends on the campaign.

20th level: (open Reserve feat; swap spell?)
Level 9 spell: Wish, Gate or Shapechange

Hope this is helpful, -- N

 

[Nifft]

IMHO Battle Sorcerer delivers -- the Sorcerer has the best tactical regarding reserve feats, since a single uncast spell-slot can power multiple feats. He can do his thing all day long, and lay down some smack when conditions require.

Human Battle Sorcerer + Reserve feats at 5, 10, 15 & 20
Str: 13, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 8, Wis: 10, Cha: 15
Skills: Bluff, Concentration
Weapon of Choice: Longsword
1/ BS 1 -- Power Attack, Cleave -- Color Spray
2/ BS 2 --

Actually, level 2 looks a bit too painful. It's too early for a Reserve feat, so maybe we should give him a bonus Fighter feat?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flamewarrior]

The Reserve feats aren't there to beat equal-CR monsters. That's not something you should be able to do all day without cost. They're fine for plinking away at equal-CR monsters while you are on the run, but really they're so you can avoid wasting spell-slots when fighting mooks. Reserve feats are less useful vs. boss monsters -- but that's fine. So is Cleave.

And I wouldn't ever take Cleave voluntarily, as I wouldn't take reserve feats; hence saying they need incentive to be viable class features (not even necessarily at low levels - I refer just to after 10). They sure aren't for defeating high-levelers, but I don't see why they couldn't help with that; besides, there's a whack of (relatively to the CR bracket in question) lower-level spells designed to cutting swaths through mooks - besides, I'd leave them to the guys with limitless resources other than HP instead of wizards anyway, as HP becomes a limitless resource itself after the CLW wand comes online.

Also, nearly every class needs a competent build to be competent. I could make a Fighter who sucks from level 1 on up, and a Sorcerer who would be a nightmare to play. The only class that'd be hard to really nerf would be the Druid, because Wild Shape doesn't depend on any particular ability scores or feats to work reasonably well.

I put forth that it's hard to make the following classes not be good: totemist, binder (despite considering it sorta weak, it's hard to screw building one), crusader, warblade, factotum (and I may've forgotten some); and I consider the same not being true of others a design failure, which we can hopefully avoid here.

In this specific case, color spray is better than it usually would be for a Sorcerer or Wizard, since this dude isn't as squishy. The normal 1st level Sorcerer or Wizard is very unhappy if some of the goblins resist -- this dude is happy he's cut down his immediate number of foes, and lays some smack down on the ones who remain.

At level 1, the difference is 4 hp. A sizable one for sure, but it doesn't have the kind of impact you seem to hint at.

I was looking at higher level spells. There's one 7th level spell that has all 4 major energy types (fire, cold, electricity and acid; it's in Dragon Magic; there's presumably something similar in Spell Compendium). Glorious Master of the Elements is the name, and it is a flexible 7th level attack spell, but more importantly it can power all four energy attack Reserve feats.

Look what you just did - it's high-level, it's not core material, it's far from what'd be expected (and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone, even a CM author, claim it "breaks the intent of reserve feats"). That, to supposedly have a character that gets use from reserve feats in the late game. Going with what I suggested, letting one free to, for example, control with standard actions and plink with swift, wouldn't be simpler? And would someone break the game by using my ideas with that spell? It wouldn't even be worth not being Batman, and by that I sure don't mean "the guy with shades and shapechange" (who's too strong), be sure.