My player submitted this class to me

[Nifft]

And I wouldn't ever take Cleave voluntarily, as I wouldn't take reserve feats; hence saying they need incentive to be viable class features (not even necessarily at low levels - I refer just to after 10).

You're obviously optimizing for a specific campaign -- I've put Cleave to good use in some games, and seen it wasted in others.

Look what you just did - it's high-level, it's not core material, it's far from what'd be expected (and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone, even a CM author, claim it "breaks the intent of reserve feats").

Wait. You asked for ideas about the higher levels. I'm posting the best stuff I can find. A Sorcerer taking spells from a book made for Sorcerers shouldn't be too terribly surprising.

It's a spell from a book published before Complete Mage.

I'm sure I could find others if that particular spell is your main objection.

- - -

Your idea is not without merit, but the whole class would need to be re-done with Bard spellcasting progression, and a more limited spell list. IMHO designing a whole class around the idea that it can do some cool Swift actions is kinda cool. But is it not the shortest or simplest path to usable Reserve feats. Certainly not Reserve feats as written.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flamewarrior]

You're obviously optimizing for a specific campaign -- I've put Cleave to good use in some games, and seen it wasted in others.

I'm just gonna say Cleave (without the improved version) is flat-out inferior to Rapid Shot, and that Great Cleave will only be a justified expenditure of 2 feats in a very narrow adventure style (namely, the PCs are attacked by wimps all the time). IMO, to be fair.

Wait. You asked for ideas about the higher levels.

Not really - I want ideas for making the class work from the get-go (like a beguiler does), as opposed to optimization ideas. Namely, I don't want "if you're Nifft, you can take this class and not suck", but "anyone can take this and not suck".

A Sorcerer taking spells from a book made for Sorcerers shouldn't be too terribly surprising.

It's a spell from a book published before Complete Mage.

I'm sure I could find others if that particular spell is your main objection.

It should work well in Core + CM (by what I mean "all classes should work with only core material and just the books from where its own specific material comes from", the material in question being CM's reserve feats).

Your idea is not without merit, but the whole class would need to be re-done with Bard spellcasting progression, and a more limited spell list. IMHO designing a whole class around the idea that it can do some cool Swift actions is kinda cool.

Take the cheese outta the wizard (by which I mean "polymorph, shadowstuff, and the like that does whatever it wants"); now tell me it's not still way better than this class; it's hard to compensate for spell versatility.

But is it not the shortest or simplest path to usable Reserve feats. Certainly not Reserve feats as written.

Please explain the "as written" clause, and tell me what's the simplest path to making them just be (not "be painstakingly optimizable to be") good at levels above the 10th.

 

[Nifft]

I'm just gonna say Cleave (without the improved version) is flat-out inferior to Rapid Shot, and that Great Cleave will only be a justified expenditure of 2 feats in a very narrow adventure style (namely, the PCs are attacked by wimps all the time). IMO, to be fair.

There was a dude complaining about Great Cleave over in Rules because he is indeed running that kind of game -- orc armies and stuff.

Not really - I want ideas for making the class work from the get-go (like a beguiler does), as opposed to optimization ideas. Namely, I don't want "if you're Nifft, you can take this class and not suck", but "anyone can take this and not suck".

Well, that's a higher standard than a lot of classes support right now, unfortunately. Everyone can make a decent Barbarian; not everyone can make a good Sorcerer, or a good Fighter, or a good TWF Ranger.

It should work well in Core + CM

And it might. I'm not familiar with CM's spells, so I didn't use any of them. If you are, would you mind looking?

Take the cheese outta the wizard (by which I mean "polymorph, shadowstuff, and the like that does whatever it wants"); now tell me it's not still way better than this class; it's hard to compensate for spell versatility.

No argument there. The Wizard wins most fights for which he's prepared because he's overflowing with strategic flexibility. Honestly, what breaks the Wizard isn't the obvious cheese you list, but the stuff in the Divination school. In other words, if you take away scry, you can leave buff and teleport alone.

Please explain the "as written" clause

"Not a swift action". That's all I meant.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Herobizkit]

So... why doesn't he just multi- Bard and Sorcerer?

 

[Flamewarrior]

There was a dude complaining about Great Cleave over in Rules because he is indeed running that kind of game -- orc armies and stuff.

That it's too good? SOMEBODY, PLEASE SHOW HIM THE WIZARD!!!

Well, that's a higher standard than a lot of classes support right now, unfortunately. Everyone can make a decent Barbarian; not everyone can make a good Sorcerer, or a good Fighter, or a good TWF Ranger.

I know, and that'd cost me my sleep, if I felt any. To be fair: while that's true, every new class made's a chance to change this. And this comes from a guy who is, as far as he can, rewriting all classes (7 fully done by now - pending, of course, future feedback - and some other 10 would be easy enough to finish as soon as anybody asked to play one, so I'll likely get there before 4E's launched).

If you are, would you mind looking?

No, but I don't think that'll disprove my point that the weakness of the reserve feats' compounded by a given "sorcerer" not knowing enough top-tier spells to keep all of their feats in top shape. I will, if only to report what I find in the thread, but I don't think even the top-shape reserve effects justify standard action use in the latter levels, where spell resources sorta abound.

Honestly, what breaks the Wizard isn't the obvious cheese you list, but the stuff in the Divination school. In other words, if you take away scry, you can leave buff and teleport alone.

That's not really what I meant; I called polymorph and shades "cheese" because they overflow with versatility on their own. Anyway, feel free to disregard divination too when comparing: I hazard saying "way more spells known" would still win, regardless of how good the BAB advantage may be, against a class whose high-level class abilities are stuff I almost can't call abilities.