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My players are going to hate me...

Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
I think it would be a cool scene. But I would also let my players have a chance of avoiding it, by placing clues to what's going on. Only if they ignored the clues, would I set up a save or die situation.

Anyway, I think you know your group best, and probably have devised a way forward from this event, so good luck!

/M
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Which implies to me that the players should be given some hints—not big smacks with the cluehammer, but enough that they have a chance to figure out that they’re in danger from more covert agencies as well as the overt ones. Things like a chance to spot footprints in the snow outside of camp after they’ve been on watch all night.

My first instinct is to say "If they're clever, they'll half-suspect this option." And if they're clever, I don't have any problem with making it more difficult for the assassin. But I am thinking as the Assassin would. Leaving footprints? Being seen? Sloppy work when you have Invisibility, Fly, Pass Without Trace, and divination spells to burn. His whole schtick is using his clerical magic to completely mask his trail. Pass Without Trace lasts all day. He can follow their trail in the snow several hours behind them, and fly up ahead or behind to check it out (while invisible) before sleeping for the night.

So I'm wondering what kind of trace he'd actually leave. Giving them clues isn't a problem if I can figure out what kind of clues this guy would concievably leave, but it's tough thinking of what he would be leaving, especially since he's a well-trained assassin whose job it is to be unseen...

Also, out of co-incidence, how common is resurrection in your game? Is it possible to bring a PC's corpse back to operational without heavy sacrifice?

This is also of key importance for the "My PC's are going to feel powerless!" crowd. :) Not only do they have access to Raise Dead, they also have access to a friendly king who has access to even more powerful spells. That PC doesn't have to STAY dead, otherwise even I'd balk at it. :) Furthermore, there's no level sacrifice IMC. The only obstacle is "paying for it," (which is going to be cheaper than usual with the friendly ogre mage king). They all happen to be pretty important, story-wise, and slaughtering them in their sleep without recourse isn't something I'm too interested in :p At the same time, the only motive I can think of for an assassin *not* being in the above scene would be ego. He might use it to paralyze at first, just to let the prey know he's on the hunt. And while creepy, that just seems like a bad assassin to me -- they are paid to efficiently kill without a trace. One who is too cocky would flunk out of Killin' U.

I wouldn't do this to my players, as there isn't really a point to slaughtering them. But if you're going to do something like this, go all the way, as the cleric/assassins are bound to know the PCs have resurrection.

Well, not nessecarily. See, one of the big themes with the spreading of the evil empire is how rare healers and healing have become. So because the Assassin was born and trianed in a land where resurrection magic was rare (because evil only brings things back to life when they can kill more things...), he's not going to count on resurrection at first. He may after the first few tries, but it'll take a while for him to wrap his brain around the fact that they're not just turned into Undead... ;)

If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice).

I let the PC assassin take a feat which enabled him to use his death attack as a ranged attack up to 30 ft. (same range as sneak attack), which requires +3d6 sneak attack and an Int of 15 as a prereq. Guess which feat this guy has? :] Silent Spell, Firearms Proficiency, Winged Death, and Extend Spell. He's level 10. PC's are 9.

Being an RBDM isn't about doing random mean things to the PCs, since that takes neither much talent nor effort. But making the choices of the PCs come back to bite them in the rear,

I make no claim to being an RBDM myself, but this does follow the motif. The PC's could have escaped the Empire without much fanfare or trouble, just as hundreds of others do. Instead, they decided to spread the rumor of the return of the legendary king who will overthrow the empire and return peace to the world, and leave the Empire in *style*. Because of the changes going on in the empire off-screen, they can't really afford to send a military force to crush the PC's, nor would they really want to anyway, the PC's being in a land that they had failed to conquer with military force so far. So the descision of the PC's to let the empire know who and where they were is coming back to bite them. They had many options. They chose to slap the Empire in the face. Methinks that allows a bit of a counter-slap.

So yes, they probably will be caught with their pants down. No, this isn't an ending or a save-or-make-a-new-character scenario (resurrection is readily available), though they will have to pay for their arrogance in challenging the empire, so to speak. And while clever play would be rewarded with clues, the clues that a self-sufficient stealth machine with a death attack would leave would be few and far between, which means that if they're not looking, they won't find clues just laying around waiting for them to see. Simple protective measures of just remaining low-key and watching out for trouble may keep them alive. Thinking as the assassin would, if the target is going to leave itself open, why not do what you were paid to do? (which probably will include trying to assassinate the providers of resurrection magic, eventually)
 

Crothian

First Post
A DM has a lot of power and a lot of abilities at his disposal. Using them to set up a situation that pretty much automatically kills a PC is no challenge.

The first post makes a good story or screen play, but I don't feel it would make a good RPG session. Might as well read the block tect to them as you have and it will be like the old modules.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
I don't think I'd last long in your campaign. Save or die just isn't any fun.


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The Thayan Menace

First Post
Death From Afar: A Case of Rick James DMing

House rules aside, there is a reason that the core dynamics do not allow ranged death attacks.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm a huge fan of RBDMing, however your NPC sniper was a cheap shot.

-Samir
 

ThoughtBubble

First Post
Well, since I know that death isn't perminant, and also doesn't severely lower the player's capabilities, I see much less reason to worry. Blow his freaking head off. :D
 

lissilambe

First Post
I also have to wonder about the competency of the assassin. He's a cleric. Healing magic in the empire is growing rare, okay, but this guy theoretically has access to priestly upbringing and scholarly works to be trained by. I can't imagine the idea of resurrection, especially among high level clerics, is completely lost. Such magic would seem to be an imperative amongst the ruler(s) of an evil empire anyway. So if this assassin is competent enough to effectively be always invisibly flying silently without trace for hours on end, doesn't it also seem to make sense that he'd realize the futility of shooting only one character at a time when they can restore their people?

All in all, I agree with the idea that the scene is slickly and heavily detailed, but there must be a better direction to go in. Perhaps assassinating the ogre mage king instead, thus really demonstrating the dread power of these assassins. I know my character wouldn't come within fifty feet of a window if he could help it after that. heh :D
 

Zoatebix

Working on it
I'm with Anax and Shilsen on this one, but I think you answered Anax's concerns pretty well, KM. Still - if you could set up something to allow for a "so that's what X was about" realization after the attempt, it would take the sting out of the scene and probably impress your players, even if it isn't a real clue. If only the assassin were someone they knew or had released as Shilsen suggested - so choice!
 

Anax

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
My first instinct is to say "If they're clever, they'll half-suspect this option." And if they're clever, I don't have any problem with making it more difficult for the assassin. But I am thinking as the Assassin would. Leaving footprints? Being seen? Sloppy work when you have Invisibility, Fly, Pass Without Trace, and divination spells to burn. His whole schtick is using his clerical magic to completely mask his trail. Pass Without Trace lasts all day. He can follow their trail in the snow several hours behind them, and fly up ahead or behind to check it out (while invisible) before sleeping for the night.

As somebody else pointed out: NPCs can always be smarter, more well equipped, better supported, etc. than the PCs can be. On the one hand, sure, if the NPC is optimally smart, the PCs should have absolutely no chance to see him coming.

But... that’s just not very fun.

An important thing to remember as a DM (which is something my current DM has trouble with), is that the players will very frequently not have any idea at all about something the DM thinks is a logical consequence of stuff that’s going on in the world. The DM is in charge of all of this, and is thinking about things pretty hard a lot of the time. But the players only see what their characters are described as seeing. (And good players ignore things that they hear that their characters don’t.)

So: I think this kind of situation (the undetectable assassin) is the kind of place you have to fudge to give the players an even break. This is why we get villains who strap the heroes down to an Infernal Machine(tm) and then go on a ten minute monologue. This is why villains gloat, and aren’t perfect professionals. (For example: an invisible assassin who feels compelled to taunt his targets by practically dancing on their heads before blowing one of them away.) This is why the first shot against a good guy who has no idea something’s coming should always always miss. (And, this is why the cleric assassin above doesn’t take logical steps to prevent the resurrection of his target.)

Anyway, that’s the last I’ll say on this. If the folks in this campaign are okay with the scenario described above, that’s fine. I just know that I would find it incredibly frustrating.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Wait, wait, am I being told that ranged save-or-die is somehow unfair?

At the same level that you can have save-or-become-a-toad? Or save-or-paralyze? Or save-or-dominate?

I'll admit it might be quite a bit early (spells don't do it 'till about another 3 levels), though since I'm letting the PC's have the same option (and they do have an assassin in their party who has used this option) it seems rather odd to say that NPC's can't use the same optiosn PC's can. Save-or-die is unfair? In general principle?

Criminey, where's your love of resurrection? Where's your use of the tools available? This death isn't final or even really with lasting effects, from a mechanical standpoint.

Considering the options available to them (cheap, readily available resurrection), this does no more than sap some of their rescources for a choice that they made, and make them well aware that they cannot take it easy. If they're not affraid of what they have done in disturbing a vast and powerful empire, if they're not taking precautions, why should I role-play the villains as if they're incompetent or somehow refrain from using the most powerful abilities at their disposal? A dragon who doesn't use the draconic intelligence to design a well-laid-out lair is quite obviously being played not up to par, right?

Again, if the PC's have known for about 3 levels now that they can use ranged death attacks (and have made use of it), why should the NPC's have qualms about it? I'll readily admit that the feat shouldn't become available until about 13th-14th level, by the book, but how is this somehow me pulling a power play on them? They will be tested, they will have expended rescources, and they will probably come out ahead in the end.

Yes, it is bad form to basically pull an "I'm the DM, so you suck!" on the PC's. But in the theoretical scenario above (which, admittedly, would require PC's to be pretty oblivious to the fact that they just pissed off an evil empire, which they might not be), how is it that this action fits into this category? The PC's have opportunities to thwart this event -- the scenario above is just one possible outcome, I haven't dictated anybody's actions. However, they don't nessecarily know it's coming -- and isn't that kind of the entire point of assassination? I mean, if an assassin let it be known that you were going to be killed in advance, gave you time to prepare and to become paranoid, wouldn't he be a pretty shoddy peice of assassin? They do, however, have knowledge that the pissed off an empire, that assassins exist in the world, and that ranged death attacks are possible pretty early on for assassins. Given that this knowledge isn't just there -- it's screaming in their faces -- how is this a DM power move that is killing them without recourse?

Unexpected? Dramatic? Shocking? Yes. That's kind of the point of assassination, right? But this isn't "Rocks fall, everyone dies!" It's not without reason, it's not without in-world motivation, and it isn't even especially potent (500 gp and a day later, they're back in their original states, having only paid the cost of underestimating the empire). If I just wanted to get my rocks off on PC death, it's not hard to do, as you've noted. This is more enjoying the drama and the force of the situation, especially in the face of PC's who would have to (to present the scenario above) be rather careless after just challenging an empire's wrath.

500 gp for laughing in the face of the greatest evil in the known world and trying to run away? When they could do the same thing? Power-mad DM? I'm not making the connection.
 

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