My players need a crash course on survivng epic combat

[clockworkjoe]

I started an epic campaign last week, each PC starting at level 21. For the first battle, I threw 10 beholders, each with 15 HD and bumped the DC of their attacks to 20. Half the party was dead or turned to stone by the end of combat. (They did wipe the beholders out).

So, I need to give them some advice so they know what to expect in combat. What are the most important things to know in high level/epic combat?

 

[frankthedm]

So was there a reason they did not open with an anti magic field?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Umm, run away when facing 10 beholder? Really, it's like facing 30+ mages and an anti-magic cannon. They can use so many attacks that survival is incredibly difficult. The only option is to either charge in the middle of them where the anti-magic cones will protect you while you beat them down or run far enough away that you can rain down arrows on them.

 

[marune]

Hmm characters of level 21 should "easily" succeed saves with a DC of 20.

I'm about to start a short campaign on this level, and I feel that my players will also need a survival guide even if I helped them in character creation. Well, I'll see after the first Scry/Buff/Teleport Devil assault

 

[ashockney]

We talked about epic characters in skeptic's thread, then we all got hit by the digital nuke. I think I even highlighted that it's fun to see how many beholders you can take out!

It sounds like your group found out...the hard way!

One thing that probably needs to be right near the top of the epic player's guide:
Losing players is probably fairly common. Keep in mind that you can rez players the way a low level cleric can heal them. So, it's ok if your players succeed, and half go down. They'll be right back. I agree with skeptic and frankthedm as well, however, that the defenses used by a typical 21st level party should be very sufficient to deal with beholders. Rogues and Monk types should have really good touch AC's to force missed attacks, clerics (and others) will have SR to avoid attacks, Paladins, Clerics, and Fighters should be almost untouchable on Fort saves (14 base, 2 base stat, 3 stat buff, 5 res bonus - this gives you a base +24). Ready access to cover and concealment effects also provide another layer of available defenses. Lastly, as Frankthedm points out, with only one "type" of villian, it's easy to counter their abilities and made quick work of them with "anti-magic shell".

The only other suggestion I've got is to invest in contingency effects.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In my campaign that went from level 1 to epic, it is typical for the entire party and all of their NPC allies to nearly wipe in every major conflict (and their major conflicts are extremely major). This is because most of them aren't sufficiently protected. Thankfully, the Frenzied Berserker usually wins the battle before he dies from his incredibly massive wounds. Epic combat is a whole lot of rock paper scissors, except that when scissors cuts paper, somebody dies.

 

[Rackhir]

You might want to read the post Mortem on Wizardru's Campaign. There's some very useful info in there on running epic level stuff. Also Piratecat has a thread on challenging his high level characters and I think there's one for Wizardru's as well.

My brief experiences with high level (lv 18, not quite epic) were unsatisfying. I'd have to agree with the rock-paper-scissors analysis. Characters can be so good at their shtick that anything that challenges them will wipe out other characters not so specialized.

 

[silentspace]

10 advanced beholders is really tough. Especially if you auto-fail on a 1. Even epic characters aren't designed to handle masses of spell-casting monsters though, even non-epic monsters. Also, if you have a lot of foes and they all act on the same initiative count, that's a huge advantage to the foes. Best to keep the number of opponents down - the rules just aren't designed for that kind of mass combat. House-rules are the way to go. There are some good alternate rules in ELH though that help in situations like this, as well as some of the power-ups that can be found in FR or Eberron.

 

[Piratecat]

In Epic level combat:

- never let the enemy get a full attack on you if you can possibly avoid it.

- lead off with a greater dispel magic.

- fight on your own terms. Flee if necessary, then return 40 minutes later when their buffing spells have worn off. Choose the battlefield.

- spells and powers that drain ability scores can finish a fight quickly if used cleverly.

- everyone must target the same foe until they're dead, then move on to the next. don't spread out your attacks.

- Finding a way to boost caster level/spell penetration is essential. Plan accordingly.

- There's not a big difference (unless you're being power attacked) between having a 20 AC and a 30 AC; the foe will still hit you every time. If you're spending money on resources, AC isn't necessarily the best place to spend it.

- A failed reflex or fort save will kill you. A failed will save can end up killing the whole party, if you get dominated or charmed.

 

[Aaron L]

Ennervation type spells are very handy. Negative levels hurt.