My players need a crash course on survivng epic combat

Piratecat said:
In Epic level combat:

- never let the enemy get a full attack on you if you can possibly avoid it.

- lead off with a greater dispel magic.

- fight on your own terms. Flee if necessary, then return 40 minutes later when their buffing spells have worn off. Choose the battlefield.

- spells and powers that drain ability scores can finish a fight quickly if used cleverly.

- everyone must target the same foe until they're dead, then move on to the next. don't spread out your attacks.

- Finding a way to boost caster level/spell penetration is essential. Plan accordingly.

- There's not a big difference (unless you're being power attacked) between having a 20 AC and a 30 AC; the foe will still hit you every time. If you're spending money on resources, AC isn't necessarily the best place to spend it.

- A failed reflex or fort save will kill you. A failed will save can end up killing the whole party, if you get dominated or charmed.

Well, very interesting.. I think I'll even send it to my players. (The campaign just started, no fights yet, they just got the basic info).

Could you give the "reverse" advice for the "villains" side ? (Many of what you said was specific for the PCs)

Also, a completly different question : I have banned Antimagic field/ray/aura because I hate this math works and my player hate it even more, what effects should I expect ?
 

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No experience at that level, however I have pondered what I would do and came to this thought- at the end of the fight your character will either be dead or have made his enemies dead or one of them will have run away. ;)

As far as tactics- PC gave great insight.
 

Epic-level combat often comes down to who wins initiative.

That said, the critical problem you are facing is that you have a band of 21st-level characters that the players have no experience with. They've never played the characters before and, more importantly, they've never played the characters as a team before so they have no intuitive understanding of how to work together. Remember the whole is greater than the sum of its parts especially in D&D.

My advice to you is to stop soliciting advice (:)) and go back to your players and, if you are still insisting on starting them "cold" at 21st level, run them through some mock combats with the same characters but at, say, 6th, 12th and 18th levels. Let them get to understand how the different characters blend their strengths together as a team. Ideally, make those mock combats part of the campaign backstory.

As for dealing with beholders, antimagic fields combined with archers are your friends.

ashockney said:
(snip) the defenses used by a typical 21st level party should be very sufficient to deal with beholders... clerics (and others) will have SR to avoid attacks (snip)

A beholder's eye rays are supernatural effects so SR has no effect.
 

Yeah, it's crazy-stupid-hard to learn how to start playing a 21st lvl PC from scratch. Imruphel has a cool idea about playing different combats at different levels. Frame them as flashbacks, and make them plot-rrelevant against the minions of a repeating foe.

For the DM:

- It's a little more work, but advancing a "traditional" monster is often much cooler than pulling out a shiny new monster that no one has heard of. When doing so, you should often ignore the "max HD" listings if you'd have more fun not being limited. A 40 hit die carrion crawler lumbering across the landscape is a thing of beauty.

- You'll want a reason why these horribly powerful monsters and foes haven't conquered the world. Otherwise, suspension of disbelief can get a bit strained. At the least, give suitable powerful foes a cool back story.

- The PCs will be immune to all sorts of things (for instance, heroes feast makes them immune to poison for 12 hours, something my gargantuan scorpions and I recently found out the hard way.) Run with it. Nerfing PC abilities more than occasionally isn't a good idea.

- Let them feel powerful. Occasionally throw a hundred humanoids at them, just so their area effect spells get a good workout.

- A recent Dungeon had an EXCELLENT article from Monte Cook on guesstimating high lvl stats on the fly. It's a must-read, and will save you many hours of prep.

- When building high lvl NPCs, quit fretting about where every skill point, every spell and every feat go. Most won't come into play, so only determine the important ones.

- A cool power that is never used is no cool power at all. Find out what the PCs are immune to, and make sure they get attacked with those energy types. They'll be thrilled... at least, the ones who prepped will be! Likewise, plan challenging adventures that let the party shine. If you attack with rogues, the epic rogue in the party will be thrilled that no one can sneak attack him. That sort of thing.

- Bigger, or more, is not normally better. I wouldn't have used the beholder encounter you led with unless I could rationalize why so many beholders would be in one place. As a DM, try using clever tactics instead of tougher/more monsters to make combats more interesting.

- Understand probabilities. The beholder fight was difficult because when lots of eyebeams are flying, the chance of rolling a "1" continues to rise. This is also true with massive damage saves.

- The effectiveness of an epic party varies substantially by whether or not they've had three rounds to buff. An unbuffed, unprepared party is MUCH less effective in combat than one which is expecting the foe.

- The traditional dungeon is mostly a thing of the past when you can wind walk and ethereal jaunt. Use some anyways, but don't be sad when they're easily circumvented (doing so is fun for players.)

- Design adventures that challenge the players, as well as their heroes. Political games are good at this. Feel free to design mysteries that can ONLY be solved through the use of high lvl divination spells.

- Make battlegrounds with cool, interesting features in them. They'll make combat more fun, and give epic adventurers tools to use during a fight. (Example: an epic rogue jumping from platform to platform over lava, an epic wizard telekinetically tossing around huge jagged boulders.)

I'm sure there's more things, but that's a good start. :D
 
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It's not who wins initiative; it's who takes initiative. The number one rule is that actions are life, and the side with the greater number of effective actions will most likely win.

I can't tell you how many times my high level group has delayed so that one player with a good opening gambit (like a high DC Sunburst) can cut loose. After that everyone does what they do best and everything falls into place.

The worst thing you can do in high level combat is to waste offensive actions. If the fighter can wait a little bit longer for that Heal then by all means, throw that empowered Comet Fall. If someone is disabled (ie: held, caught in a Solid Fog or an Evard's) you're usually better off taking out the caster of that effect then wasting an action pulling a party member out of the fix. If they aren't going to immediately die, then blast away. Also for casters, "blast away" doesn't always mean dealing straight damage; controlling the battlefield or throwing an extremely usefull buff can often be far more effective.
 


Piratecat said:
In Epic level combat:


- There's not a big difference (unless you're being power attacked) between having a 20 AC and a 30 AC; the foe will still hit you every time. If you're spending money on resources, AC isn't necessarily the best place to spend it.

Unless you are an AC specialist, this is completely correct. If you go whole hog on AC, you can get enough to make hitting you difficult by most anything you will face (well except really big things). I can't ever get the point across to people I play high level LG with that boosting my AC a bit more at 38 is far more valuable than moving someone from 24 to 28. A couple points of AC when they hit you with a sub 10 number is not very valuable compared to a couple points when they hit you with a 17.

I have played and run a fair amount of high level 3rd ed, though no epic. After 15th things really are about who knows what they're facing, who goes first, and who has the best buffs.

buzzard
 

Piratecat said:
Yeah, it's crazy-stupid-hard to learn how to start playing a 21st lvl PC from scratch. Imruphel has a cool idea about playing different combats at different levels. Frame them as flashbacks, and make them plot-rrelevant against the minions of a repeating foe.

[...]

I'm sure there's more things, but that's a good start. :D

I'll just say WOW :p

Seriously, I have plans for a couple of thing you mentioned (final fight in a erupting volcano), a figth with numerous typical "tough" monster that will be a piece of cake for them(a pack of vampires), etc, etc.

But I'll have to work hard to resist the urge to stats all the NPCs :(

I would like to hear you about wealth management (if you used to follow the official guidelines) and giving appropriate "awards" at those levels.

Access to high valuable magic items could be an interesting topic too, but it's kinda campaign specific.
 
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Imruphel and Piratecat (unsurprisingly!) give good advice here. For my part, I'm shocked that any PCs died against so piffling a foe as 10 beholders. A single anti-magic field negates their entire combat capability and reduces them to useless gasbags against the PCs. The best a beholder could do under those circumstances would be to fly away before the archer unleashed a storm of arrows.

For general advice, your PCs should understand that epic combat is highly all-or-nothing and dependent upon choosing the battlefield and the timing. Most D&D "foils" (anti-magic field, death ward, mind blank, true seeing, etc.) operate with 100% certainty, meaning that you either have the perfect countermeasure or none at all. Thus, the key is to pile on the no-brainer defenses at all times, which is quite "affordable" in terms of items and spell slots even by high non-epic levels.

Second, cheap shots are the way to go. All PCs that can should be invisible and hiding at all times. You should either surprise your opponent or, if taken by surprise, LEAVE THE BATTLEFIELD. If you know who your enemy is, you should use scry-buff-teleport and similar tactics. Treat combat like nuclear war; unless you're the only one with the winning weapon, it's mutually-assured destruction. Unless your DM sticks you in one of those cheap settings in which you can't teleport or plane travel, always blow all your buffs and retrench immediately if the combat looks even remotely challenging.

Third, be prepared to die. It's okay, really. True resurrection is comparatively cheap at epic levels, and your PC will come back. Just make sure his STUFF doesn't get destroyed!
 

skeptic said:
But I'll have to work hard to resist the urge to stats all the NPCs :(
I firmly believe that having time-saving techniques is the key to avoiding DM burnout in an epic game. Seriously, it can be a pain in the tuchus to stat a group of high-lvl NPCs. Also use tools like Heroforge and other excellent, free DM assistants. If you can find a good one that makes advancing monsters a breeze, you'll treasure it. (Any suggestions from folks?)

I don't keep intricate track of wealth management, partially because my campaign levels far slower than the average. (PCs level about every 10-12 game sessions in my game.) As a result, average monster treasure is less than standard. Last time I checked, though, the average value of PC magic items was about right. I'd say that my group has more cash tied up in items and property, and less in loose gold. I'm a big fan of stylish "low liquidity" treasure: manor houses, baronies, and items that provide a steady income but which can't be easily out-and-out sold. I'm also a fan of unique, expensive, memorable items instead of lots and lots of generic items.

It gets to the point at high levels that a lot of bad guy magic items simply won't be useful to the PCs. Having some way to liquidate those, and to make your own stuff, becomes very useful. Not giving PCs occasional downtime to manufacture items changes the balance of the game.

It's worth noting that in a tricky campaign, information is the best treasure possible. I'd take information over loot almost any day in Sagiro's game, and I suspect that's the same for my own players.
 

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