My poor, unfortunate players...

[diaglo]

I personally don't understand why a DM would want to punish the entire party for one player's miscalculation. (From what you described, they were just trying to mortally wound the NPC so the paladin could get the killing blow; is this correct?)

this is a team game. otherwise why would many parties even stick together.

i don't see Merric punishing anyone here. he truthfully told them what to expect. they did this to themselves.

a group is only as strong as its weakest link.

if you play as a group, you have to take the good with the bad.

next time they will know to be more wary.

 

[JesterPoet]

i don't see Merric punishing anyone here. he truthfully told them what to expect. they did this to themselves.

I think this is an important distinction, actually. As long as Merric simply allows events to unfold as they would due to the actions of the players, rather than actively punishing them, there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.

I think punishing them for making a mistake would be a bad idea.... But I don't think he intends to do that. It seems to me that he's going to let things progress as they normally would in reaction to what the players (yes, playerS) have done.

OTOH, I do think it is important, Merric, that you don't let your other players be too hard on the sorceress. Don't condone OOC player disagreements coming into game, and don't let your characters hate the sorceress so much "in character" that it is disruptive to the party. Only bad things can come of that, IMO.

 

[dreaded_beast]

For the information of those who don't understand the Australian culture, "poor dumb players" is an amusing way of referring to my players. It would appear as such to my players, especially given the way that I wrote my initial post.

Perhaps I could have chosen better words, but I don't really want to speak American or British idiom. Ignore them and move on.

Thanks for letting me know about this particular remark and the meaning behind it, because based on my American idiom, I took this in a negative light.

All that aside, I understand the need for player actions to have consequences, good or bad.

I guess my point is that while players may do things that have not been planned for and may not do the "smartest" thing at times, they shouldn't be made to feel "stupid" by either the DM or the other players. I play DND to have fun, not to feel like an idiot.

I'm not implying that you have done this (I may be misinterpreting the tone of your messages ), this is just my feeling in general about relationships among players within a group.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Thanks for letting me know about this particular remark and the meaning behind it, because based on my American idiom, I took this in a negative light.

I'm an aussie, and I took it to be in a negative light.

I'm sorry, but there's no way to take someone berating you in public in a positive light. It's just not going to happen.

The whole post was "haha, my players are stupid!". There's no other reason to post it than to make the poster feel good by making other people feel bad.

 

[MerricB]

Alright, since one word has caused a huge uproar, I've changed it. Happy now? I'm sorry if you took offense at it, but it had little to do with you. It is a matter for my players and me to resolve.

Now tell me the name of the player who played the sorceress.

Tell me the gender of the player.

Ah... you don't know. Interesting that, isn't it?

I guess my point is that while players may do things that have not been planned for and may not do the "smartest" thing at times, they shouldn't be made to feel "stupid" by either the DM or the other players. I play DND to have fun, not to feel like an idiot.

Well, unless they do act really, really stupidly, of course. Fire Elementals are immune to fire. What would you do against a player who always attacked Fire Elementals with fireball, regardless of what people told him or her about the Elemental's immunities, and what the DM was telling him or her?

There does come a point when you have to accept that you have been stupid, and you'll be called on it. I don't think being constantly reminded of it is a good thing, however...

I think my campaign will move on from this occurence a lot easier than some of you seem to be able to. There will be consequences, yes, but those consequences will breed new adventures - which will be fun, and which are the point of D&D, surely? I'm not going to spend every session saying "You're a dumb player!"

Has this thread been pointless and without merit? Not at all - there's been a lot of interesting debate about railroading, about player actions and their consequences.

I don't run a campaign where the PCs get off if they make mistakes. There are consequences involved, which actually increase the enjoyment of the game. Would you enjoy a game where it didn't matter what you did, the DM would always fudge it so you won?

Cheers!

 

[robberbaron]

Sorry, double post.

 

[robberbaron]

I would wager that those of you berating Merric for calling his players "dumb" have no problem calling DMs "rat-bastards"?

If his players don't take offence why should you?

Oh, and my characters sometimes do stupid things that give the party a hard time. Doesn't everyone?

 

[Li Shenron]

I toss in my 2 copper pieces as well...

1st CP: it happened to me too to be addressed as "stupid" for having done something that caused the plot to take a longer or harder route for the characters. I think it's VERY easy for the DM who knows everything of the situation and the plot to not be always able to understand the difficulty (and sometimes, the impossibility) to make a choice other than by chance or intuition.
But for what you wrote here, this was not your case. But of course if in the course of the campaign the DM fills the plot with tricks and disguises and lies, then the players soon start thinking that everything is not what it seems, and even the most simple choice raises doubts in them. Be careful...

2nd CP: i actually think that many gamers WANT to do the wrong thing sometimes, even if perhaps unconsciously. Why? Well, have you ever seen an exciting movie where the hero does no mistakes? Very many great stories are based upon mistakes, what if in the "Iliad" (english name...?) the Troy inhabitants didn't open the surprise horse? That would not have been a memorable episode otherwise... Maybe your Sorcerer was unconsciously afraid of the campaign's end, and her subconscious whispered her... "mess it up! do the wrong thing!" and in fact here they are now, with even MORE adventures awaiting them
Or maybe you are just right, and she was "unconscious" since the start...

 

[MerricB]

I was talking to the player of the paladin today about the incident.

He reminded me that he had just engaged the BBG in melee, and had hit it once, and I had described it as staggered and badly hurt. He thought the player of the sorceress was joking when the magic missile spell was announced... he's still very annoyed at her player.

Cheers!

 

[SweeneyTodd]

He thought the player of the sorceress was joking when the magic missile spell was announced... he's still very annoyed at her player.

I guess this was my issue. I was trying to understand why sticking to the consequences of error as written in the module was worth having people actually being upset out of game.

It seems like what you're saying is "Adherence to the module is the primary priority for me", so that's cool. I wouldn't try to convince you to change your preferences. People have different priorities in playing and DMing.