My preferences for D&D are odd

Sounds like your overall experience is similar to my own, if with a few slight divergences. There is really only one solution and it is one that I have skirted around myself, mainly because of time constraints:

FANTASY HEARTBREAKER TIME!!!

In other words, build your own version of D&D - take what you like from each and every version and combine it into your own variation of the game. I would recommend starting with a single edition as a base, probably either 3.5E or 4E, and cut back a lot of the fiddly bits (feats, skills, and powers), then build on what you like.

In particular I am intrigued with your mention that all powers are essentially just a combination of damage, attack type, and a condition. Why not scrap powers altogether and replace it with an improvised attack system where the player says what he wants to do and rather than have at-wills, encounters, and dailies, the DM either offers a penalty (0 for at-will equivalents, -2 for encounters, -5 for dailies) or give the characters "power points" which can be spent on building spontaneous attacks?

Or maybe that would be too much of a headache? But my point is, it sounds like you want to strip it all back to the essential stuff, but that you also like options. Why not make those options the free imagination of the players within the game, with guidelines on how to translate that into the rules?

You could also do something similar with feats - just get rid of all of them then have the players say what special traits they want their characters to have, then use DM's discretion to customize their character. It is fun having stuff that isn't in the rulebook, that other player's can't have or even know about.

The same with skills - go back to using the ability scores as a base - "untrained," then + half level for training in a specialty (e.g. Athletics under Strength), then + full level for mastery of a specialty.

Hmm...sounds like I'm fleshing out my own Fantasy Heartbreaker here...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sounds like your overall experience is similar to my own, if with a few slight divergences. There is really only one solution and it is one that I have skirted around myself, mainly because of time constraints:

FANTASY HEARTBREAKER TIME!!!

In other words, build your own version of D&D - take what you like from each and every version and combine it into your own variation of the game. I would recommend starting with a single edition as a base, probably either 3.5E or 4E, and cut back a lot of the fiddly bits (feats, skills, and powers), then build on what you like.

In particular I am intrigued with your mention that all powers are essentially just a combination of damage, attack type, and a condition. Why not scrap powers altogether and replace it with an improvised attack system where the player says what he wants to do and rather than have at-wills, encounters, and dailies, the DM either offers a penalty (0 for at-will equivalents, -2 for encounters, -5 for dailies) or give the characters "power points" which can be spent on building spontaneous attacks?

Or maybe that would be too much of a headache? But my point is, it sounds like you want to strip it all back to the essential stuff, but that you also like options. Why not make those options the free imagination of the players within the game, with guidelines on how to translate that into the rules?

You could also do something similar with feats - just get rid of all of them then have the players say what special traits they want their characters to have, then use DM's discretion to customize their character. It is fun having stuff that isn't in the rulebook, that other player's can't have or even know about.

The same with skills - go back to using the ability scores as a base - "untrained," then + half level for training in a specialty (e.g. Athletics under Strength), then + full level for mastery of a specialty.

Hmm...sounds like I'm fleshing out my own Fantasy Heartbreaker here...


There's nothing in this post I disagree with. However, if you're going to take the time to do all of this and mix and match pieces, it seems like you may benefit from at least considering one of the toolkit systems. Picking which parts you want to best match your experience is what you'd have to do anyway, but with using pieces which are already designed to be modular and fit together.

If nothing else, you may find other pieces you like which you want to mix and match into your D&D Frankenstein.
 

It All Comes Down To This ...

An old, oddly youthful man turns toward you slowly. His long, silver hair dances about him as a fresh breeze blows. "You have reached the final test, my friend! You are proved clever and powerful, but this is not yet enough! Seek me when you feel yourself worthy!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure what "movement" you have in mind, but there is an "old school" of fantasy gaming called Do Your Own Thing.

Dave Arneson did it. Gary Gygax did it. Ken St Andre did it. M.A.R. Barker did it. Dave Hargrave did it. Lee Gold did it. Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus did it. Greg Stafford did it.

They set up games, and opened the door to players. Because the games were fun, they never wanted for players.

That's what it means truly to be the Dungeon Master.

"Build it, and they will come."

For everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!
- Dungeons & Dragons, 1974
 

Is there anyone else out there that also feels that blending the various mechanics of different D&D systems would be better than any one edition of the game?

No. It'll only be good for that one person. The rest of us will then tear it apart and develop our own systems. :D
 


Bitten by the homebrew bug. No more handed down, do as it says compromise rule sets for you. This itch can maybe be scratched by:

tearing it down and building it up again in-game with something bendy like BECM

tearing it down and building it up again out- and in-game with a fully customisable D&D such as White Box

exploring with a more modern and customisable system framework than D&D

or, the ultimate step,

paper, pencil and design your own

One of these is probably a route to madness :cool: but the others might suffice.
 

I take it that the OP doesn't simply want to build his own but wants to play D&D, be within the D&D umbrella, and probably be able to use D&D materials. As I said before, I think the best route is to take a d20-based system--3.x or 4E--and customize it to your liking. That way you can still use stuff from WotC, like the monsters and classes and such, but you don't have to use what you don't want to use.

As I said, skills and feats are easy to jettison and you don't lose much, especially if you add back in those skills that a given character has training in. Feats can simply be guidelines for special talents each character has. Powers are rather formulaic so if the OP is willing to put the time in to crack the code, he can bypass the whole lot and whittle it down to the basic formula.

I've always like the idea of pasting on an Ars Magica-esque magic system: Technique + Form + d20 roll, or maybe Power Source + School/Sphere + d20.

Etc. The d20 system is infinitely customizable and, with a little flexibility of thinking and a knack for conversion, one can use pretty much anything published as D&D as resources.
 

For Korgoth and Kitsune, I've put a start on what I'd change about BECMI here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...ake-rules-cyclopedia-new-school-new-post.html

The thing that makes me really odd I think, is that I want to incorporate 4e innovations onto old school play-style. It seems to be a very strong fissure where people who desire the old-school play style reject everything about 4e because it has a powers system. That's why you see a few 1e/3e blends but nobody seems to be itching to blend 4e and Basic/1e/2e like I am.

I also think I'm odd because I don't want to scale upwards in character power ad infinitum, with bigger and bigger monsters and damage rolls. I like developing the character, but I'm bored of that after 6 months to a year, and then change either the focus of the campaign or start a new campaign. I find the idea of 20 or 30 levels of power-ups to be an insufferable grind.

So I understand now why they capped the Hit Dice of their classes at 9 or 10 HD. I just don't understand why they didn't develop rules for realm management and gave you henchmen and followers that you had to babysit rather than use and spend. Why not rules for followers giving XP to their lord through their adventures? Why not rules for how to play politics or build your own dungeon?

There was birthright I suppose (eventually) but that came with its own setting and rules assumptions that were different from the core game. I also don't understand why spell-casters kept getting exponentially tougher while the martial classes languished.

As for my task of homebrewing, I'm finding the biggest difficulty for my D&D homebrew is blending non-minis and minis play. Sure, I can use minis with the editions 1-3, but it doesn't really take advantage of the medium for exciting skirmish play like 4e does. However, I don't want to have two sets of monster stats and character rules for all of the exploration encounters and the tactical miniatures skirmish battlefield.
 

For Korgoth and Kitsune, I've put a start on what I'd change about BECMI here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...ake-rules-cyclopedia-new-school-new-post.html

The thing that makes me really odd I think, is that I want to incorporate 4e innovations onto old school play-style. It seems to be a very strong fissure where people who desire the old-school play style reject everything about 4e because it has a powers system. That's why you see a few 1e/3e blends but nobody seems to be itching to blend 4e and Basic/1e/2e like I am.

I also think I'm odd because I don't want to scale upwards in character power ad infinitum, with bigger and bigger monsters and damage rolls. I like developing the character, but I'm bored of that after 6 months to a year, and then change either the focus of the campaign or start a new campaign. I find the idea of 20 or 30 levels of power-ups to be an insufferable grind.

So I understand now why they capped the Hit Dice of their classes at 9 or 10 HD. I just don't understand why they didn't develop rules for realm management and gave you henchmen and followers that you had to babysit rather than use and spend. Why not rules for followers giving XP to their lord through their adventures? Why not rules for how to play politics or build your own dungeon?

There was birthright I suppose (eventually) but that came with its own setting and rules assumptions that were different from the core game. I also don't understand why spell-casters kept getting exponentially tougher while the martial classes languished.

As for my task of homebrewing, I'm finding the biggest difficulty for my D&D homebrew is blending non-minis and minis play. Sure, I can use minis with the editions 1-3, but it doesn't really take advantage of the medium for exciting skirmish play like 4e does. However, I don't want to have two sets of monster stats and character rules for all of the exploration encounters and the tactical miniatures skirmish battlefield.

Hmm, the mention of realm management and hencmen (both of which are not very directly combat related parts of the game) makes me think you may indeed benefit from trying something else.

How gritty do you prefer combat to be? Do you feel your heroes should be fighting armies or do you feel your heroes should be leading armies?
 

There is no edition of D&D that is the right one for me, but I see glimpses of the D&D edition that I want. However, every edition gives me something that I want with the right hand, but takes it away with the left.

We can work within those parameters. I think it would be easiest to start with 4e and work backwards.

Some examples...

1) Tiers of play that divide into dungeon crawling heroic adventures, paragons of legendary heroes, and epic god-like mythological battles. Always present in D&D, but solidified as a trope in 4e.

However, I want to mix it with...

From 1e/2e - Combat abilities (such as Hit Dice and Amour Class) largely cap at level 10, but a play style continues afterward that involves politics, wargaming and mass battles, and realm management.

As long as attacks and damage also cap (or slow down, quite a bit), this should not change much in the way of balance, but at that point, what's the point?

If, on the other hand, you wish to make higher-level threats more deadly by not scaling the attacks/damage to match, consider that (later) 4e already has ways of doing this.

If the point is one of tone, it is certainly possible, but would require a lot of math (unless you took an E6 approach, but made it E10).

If you still like your characters and want to continue, why would you want to spend all 30 levels doing the exact same thing? That's 1-3 years of real time, and it always gets stale for me 6 months - 1 year in. So why not change the assumptions of the game to keep it fresh? If all you want to do is dungeon crawl, 10th level is a good place to kill the BBEG and retire at the top of the heap with your keep.

If however you want something different, then after 10 levels of enjoying playing Heroes of Might and Magic III-V on the tabletop, you can get freaky with epic apotheosis. However, the most interesting epic destinies don't require a ceaseless dungeon crawl to get there in my opinion. Immortal Trickster, Demi-god, Eternal King, Saint, Archmage etc. all seem to imply a political career and lots of social interaction beforehand, not just dungeon crawling. Plus, if you are god-like beings, why do you still act like an adventuring party? Shouldn't your game mechanics involve meddling with mortals and causing the Trojan War or Ragnogarok?

I think 4e kind of encourages this already (especially with the lack of epic creature-threats out there). Simply highlight these thematic tones in your adventure-design, and you should pretty easily be able to pull it off.

2) I want ascending AC... but I want to cap that at AC 30 and cap my to-hit bonus at +20. Why? I want the feeling that you are getting more skilled at hitting things at higher levels, not a ceaseless grind with the same miss chance.

I don't understand. If you cap them both, the miss chance becomes static. Perhaps what would work better is if you capped defenses, but allowed bonuses to increase (at a slowed rate (perhaps 1/3-1/5 levels, instead of 1/2).

3) I want minis combat... but I don't want it every single time we fight. Setting up minis and tiles is tedious, and while it is fun and interesting for climactic battles, it isn't interesting for dungeon crawling. Dungeon crawling has pretty much died with my 4e game, because my players can't grok to adapting their powers for non-minis play.

I don't want to go back to minis combat that doesn't take full advantage of minis (so 3.5 and earlier are not robust enough rules systems for me) but I want rules that I can run combats without busting out any special equipment (so 3e and 4e aren't satisfying either). 3e and Pathfinder are actually the worst of both worlds for me, because minis are essential enough that you need them (or some sort of marking tokens) but they don't take full advantage of the tabletop minis format like 4e.

I'm with you on this one. May I suggest that you work with your players to create abstract descriptions of their powers, especially At-Wills (for instance, Tide of Iron="When I hit an opponent, I get to push him back, and step right on up in his face."), to reference during the more minor battles. Abstract monster abilities in a similar way and you can probably do most of your combats without a map (as long as you don't have a player that insists on tactical accuracy).

4) I hate the diplomacy skill. I don't mind the other social skills (intimidate, bluff, insight) because it is a single action in the narrative. But diplomacy is about persuading someone or convincing them to "like you". That's a whole conversation that is reduced to a single dice roll. The logic in bringing it in was that less socially adept or shy players have limitations of playing charismatic characters, and need the assistance. Well, after 10 years, I'd like to call this experiment a failure, because shy or socially inept players still can't play charismatic heroes, and it just encourages players to run roughshod over plot. Intimidate is good for expressing your will forcefully, bluff allows you to sell your position to the person you are trying to persuade, and insight is good for getting hints from the DM on what the NPC's want to hear. Even the most socially inept PC's are able to piece together the clues and make a convincing case, rather than reaching for the Diplomacy skill right off the bat. The roleplaying aspect of the game was better off without diplomacy in it, though better when it includes the other social skills.

I think if you simply required that your PCs describe their skill uses before rolling, you would eliminate this (and other) problems associated with them. "Describe" does not necessarily mean "role-play," but could. If you did away with Diplomacy completely, however, it would probably not break the game...

5) I hate the DC system. Most specifically, I hate the fact that you assign a difficulty class based on how easy or hard a PC finds a skill or task. If you are going to assign a difficulty low enough that they are pretty much assured success, then why not just let them do it? If you are going to make it impossible for them to succeed, just tell the PC's it is impossible. If you are going to make it somewhat likely that they will succeed, just have a pass/fail mechanic like rolling saving throws. Figuring out DC's is just a waste of time.

So where I'm odd here is that I want a resolution mechanic similar to what they used in proficiencies, but with the skill system of post-3e.

The skill design of 4e really can easily be turned into an automatic pass/fail mechanic (much more so than 3.x could), since training is a flat enhancement (which opens up options). I would still have a record of bonuses to use as a reference, but this kind of thing can easily be winged. Personally, I would weigh training more heavily than numbers with an automatic pass/fail mechanic. Just don't forget about opposed checks.

6) I love conditions, unreservedly. I have yet to see any monster attack or character ability that can't be mimicked adequately by using conditions, and they are very simple and quick to implement. Crippling wound? Slowed and ongoing damage. Someone threw dirt in your eyes? Blinded. Hit exceptionally hard upside the head? Dazed. Shadow drained your strength? Weakened.

Cool. Keep them in mind when you abstract powers (as described above).

7) I hate the powers system, unreservedly. At-wills are too repetitive. Encounter powers are front-loaded in encounters, and thus the combat drags after they are spent. Dailies are hoarded all day, and you have the sheer disappointment of knowing you'll have to wait 1-4 weeks before you can try it again. Plus, every power is built on the very flexible system of combining damage, a condition, and an attack type (melee, ranged, area burst etc.). It could be so much more fluid if we could flexibly build these special attacks instead of relying on a straight jacket of choosing a single attack every level or two.

But I haven't seen too many complaints about how the powers system was implemented, just a pox on the existence of powers in general.

As for At-Wills, I recommend that you encourage your players to do similar things that are dependent on their environment and situation. If they are having trouble getting out of the mindset of spamming powers over and over, reward them +1 to hit with a slightly altered (on the fly) At-Will that takes advantage of environment/situation at hand. That should provide the incentive to get them started.

As for Dailies, consider giving them back at the end of a short rest if they missed during combat. Do note, however, that this approach will definitely effect the length of time they can go between extended rests (and, also, that most dailies either grant something on a miss, or are reliable.

8) But.... I love the idea of powers. I don't want to go back to the case where only wizards have special attacks. It doesn't make any sense why a wizard has a disintegrate spell that causes someone to instantly die, but a rogue doesn't have a "knife to the head" attack that does the same thing. It doesn't make sense that wizards can become godlike arcanists, but fighters can't become super soldier kung fu assassins that can cut giants in half with a single blow or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Powers also allow players to have a more exciting and descriptive experience with combat, rather than "I hit and hit again". True, you can describe an abstract attack roll however you wish, but it helps if you aren't just doing damage to a single creature. Being able to target multiple opponents, trip them, slow them, blind them, daze them or whatever helps sell the experience. Just not if you do the same injuries in every encounter, or (even worse) round to round with your at-wills.

This is the main reason I suggest starting with 4e and working backwards, instead of the other way around.

Good luck. If you implement any of these suggestions, I'd love to hear how they work out.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top