D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Yaarel]

I guess we just disagree.

Wait. Are you saying that there is no difference between lineages, except a personality trait?

If so, of course, I disagree!

 

[Mistwell]

Being childlike and curious about new things, isnt a separate species.

Also. The Halfling values "hardwork", "loyal outlook", "abundant rewards", and they can defend themselves "ferociously". There is some kind of ambition here. Family and home, ... legacy and estate, ... is a form of ambition.

But again.

Personality ≠ Lineage



The Elf differs physiologically because of planar origin and magical nature, but the appearance of it is subtle.

The Halfling as a Half-Gnome, would be physiologically nonhuman in origin. Even better if the Gnome is Fey.

From the Wikipedia entry:

"Tolkien presented hobbits as relatives of the human race, or a "variety" or separate "branch" of humanity. In Tolkien's fictional world, hobbits and other races are aware of the similarities between humans and hobbits (hence the colloquial terms for each other of "Big People" and "Little People"); nevertheless, the hobbits consider themselves a separate people."

I tend to default to calling people what they want to be called. If hobbits want to be called a separate people from humans, then I think it's right to call them a separate people from humans.

 

[Yaarel]

hairy shoeless feet, natural stealthiness, and round jovial faces, in terms of physical traits.

Hairy shoeless feet: heh, sorry for your 5e loss.

Round jovial faces: no problem.

Natural stealthiness: the 5e mechanics and lore for Halfling could do more to emphasize this, in ways that are clearly nonhuman.

From the Wikipedia entry:

"Tolkien presented hobbits as relatives of the human race, or a "variety" or separate "branch"of humanity. In Tolkien's fictional world, hobbits and other races are aware of the similarities between humans and hobbits (hence the colloquial terms for each other of "Big People" and "Little People"); nevertheless, the hobbits consider themselves a separate people."

In other words.

The Halfling is a Human!

The Halfling isnt a separate lineage.

The Halfling is a physically diverse Human ethnicity.

A Human nation is a "people".

That is what I have been saying all along.

The Halfling can be deleted from the list of lineages and added to the list of Human ethnicities.

The Halfling is way too Human.

 

[Hussar]

Your dwarves and gnomes sound pretty human to me.

Really? Your humans build underground cities and are united in their hatred of a specific enemy?

Look, I'm not talking about the quality here. Just the fact that halflings do stand out here as being 100% replaceable by humans without any changes other than about 3 feet vertically. Dwarves and gnomes might describe some humans, at best, but, the halfling description is pretty much indistinguishable from how you would describe most of humanity.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Really? Your humans build underground cities and are united in their hatred of a specific enemy?

Look, I'm not talking about the quality here. Just the fact that halflings do stand out here as being 100% replaceable by humans without any changes other than about 3 feet vertically. Dwarves and gnomes might describe some humans, at best, but, the halfling description is pretty much indistinguishable from how you would describe most of humanity.

It's a perfectly plausible way to describe a human civilization, yes. Hell, a lot of the elements are comparable to the existing Human write up.

Do yourself a favor, compare the PHB human write up to the halfling one directly. They aren't similar.

 

[Hussar]

It's a perfectly plausible way to describe a human civilization, yes. Hell, a lot of the elements are comparable to the existing Human write up.

Do yourself a favor, compare the PHB human write up to the halfling one directly. They aren't similar.

Sorry, but, how did I not just do that? I took the word for word description of halflings in the PHB and simply substituted humans. It worked perfectly fine. Since the argument is that halflings are just short humans, well, that is pretty strong evidence no? The counter argument that all the races are just (Insert trait here) humans doesn't hold much water when you cannot actually substitute human for those other races.

I wonder how far you could take this.

 

[Hussar]

Let's continue with our cut and replace of halflings with humans:

lThe diminutive humans survive in a world full of larger creatures by avoiding notice or, barring that, avoiding offense. Standing about 3 feet tall, they appear relatively harmless and so have managed to survive for centuries in the shadow of empires and on the edges of wars and political strife. They are inclined to be stout, weighing between 40 and 45 pounds.

Humans’ skin ranges from tan to pale with a ruddy cast, and their hair is usually brown or sandy brown and wavy. They have brown or hazel eyes. Human men often sport long sideburns, but beards are rare among them and mustaches even more so. They like to wear simple, comfortable, and practical clothes, favoring bright colors.

Human practicality extends beyond their clothing. They’re concerned with basic needs and simple pleasures and have little use for ostentation. Even the wealthiest of halflings keep their treasures locked in a cellar rather than on display for all to see. They have a knack for finding the most straightforward solution to a problem, and have little patience for dithering.

Kind a n d Curious Humans are an affable and cheerful people. They cherish the bonds of family and friendship as well as the comforts of hearth and home, harboring few dreams of gold or glory. Even adventurers among them usually venture into the world for reasons of community, friendship, wanderlust, or curiosity. They love discovering new things, even simple things, such as an exotic food or an unfamiliar style of clothing. Humansare easily moved to pity and hate to see any living thing suffer. They are generous, happily sharing what they have even in lean times.

Bl e n din t ot h e Crowd Humans are adept at fitting into a community of humans, dwarves, or elves, making themselves valuable and welcome. The combination of their inherent stealth and their unassuming nature helps humans to avoid unwanted attention. Humans work readily with others, and they are loyal to their friends, whether Human or otherwise. They can display remarkable ferocity when their friends, families, or communities are threatened.

Pa s t o r a l Pleasantries Most Humans live in small, peaceful communities with large farms and well-kept groves. They rarely build kingdoms of their own or even hold much land beyond their quiet shires. They typically don’t recognize any sort of human nobility or royalty, instead looking to family elders to guide them. Families preserve their traditional ways despite the rise and fall of empires.Many humans live among other races, where the humans’ hard work and loyal outlook offer them abundant rewards and creature comforts. Some human communities travel as a way of life, driving wagons or guiding boats from place to place and maintaining no permanent home.

Maybe a couple of quibbles, but, not really out of line. And not something you could do with elves.

I think probably the best bit comes from the relations with humans section:

Humans. “Humans are a lot like us, really. At least some of them are. Step out of the castles and keeps, go talk to the farmers and herders and you’ll find good, solid folk. Not that there’s anything wrong with the barons and soldiers—you have to admire their conviction. And by protecting their own lands, they protect us as well.”

I mean, good grief, it's RIGHT THERE. They flat out state that halflings aren't terribly different from common humans. It's not like people are inventing this stuff out of thin air. But, sure, try to do the same thing with elves. Or dragonborn. See if it still sounds like a human.

 

[pemerton]

The description of the Halfling 100% purely utterly completely identically totally HUMAN!

What else would we expect? This is exactly the literary purpose for which JRRT invented Hobbits: to be completely conventional English folk (as he imagined such folk).

 

[pemerton]

I want D&D elves to be less Tolkien elves and more nature beings, earthy being of vegetation or skyey being of sunlight.

At least even Tolkien had some kind of nod toward a nonhuman magical origin and heritage.

You should try Burning Wheel.

 

[pemerton]

People just weirdly overthink things.

People play halflings because they want to play short plucky heroes.

Anything beyond that is pretty limited to probably less than 1% of D&D players.

I think this is true. But why, then, are Halfling defenders trying to argue that Halflings aren't - in terms of culture and heritage - just interchangeable with humans? That seems like overthinking, or at least overreaching.

 

[Don Durito]

I think this is true. But why, then, are Halfling defenders trying to argue that Halflings aren't - in terms of culture and heritage - just interchangeable with humans? That seems like overthinking, or at least overreaching.

Yeah I think it is.

The only real true distinction from humans is their greater pluck. Potential levels of pluck being a quality of directly inverse proportionality to one's height.

 

[pemerton]

The only real true distinction from humans is their greater pluck. Potential levels of pluck being a quality of directly inverse proportionality to one's height.

Has anyone ever encountered a plucky half-ogre or half-giant?

I once had an ogre PC in a Rolemaster campaign. He was about 10' tall, weighed about 1200 lb, and was absolutely devastating in melee. He was also good company if you didn't want too sophisticated a night out. But I don't recall anyone ever describing him as plucky.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Hairy shoeless feet: heh, sorry for your 5e loss.

Round jovial faces: no problem.

Natural stealthiness: the 5e mechanics and lore for Halfling could do more to emphasize this, in ways that are clearly nonhuman.




In other words.

The Halfling is a Human!

The Halfling isnt a separate lineage.

The Halfling is a physically diverse Human ethnicity.

A Human nation is a "people".

That is what I have been saying all along.

The Halfling can be deleted from the list of lineages and added to the list of Human ethnicities.

The Halfling is way too Human.

Can you explain again why you feel the need to ask another poster their opinion, and then when they give it to you you try to tell them why their opinion is wrong?

What is your end goal? Is it to convince everyone in this thread to stop liking what they like because you don't like it? Are you going to keep refuting opinions until no opinions differ from your own?

You asked...they answered. It's not a debate because it's an opinion.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Really? Your humans build underground cities and are united in their hatred of a specific enemy?

Look, I'm not talking about the quality here. Just the fact that halflings do stand out here as being 100% replaceable by humans without any changes other than about 3 feet vertically. Dwarves and gnomes might describe some humans, at best, but, the halfling description is pretty much indistinguishable from how you would describe most of humanity.

Let's flip this around. Dwarves live underground and Duregar (which are also dwarves) live even more underground. Elves love the forest but some elves also live more underground. Gnomes live all over the place, and some gnomes live more underground.

The elves and gnomes that live more underground changed to adapt to their environment and presumably build cities where they live.

So what keeps humans from having had an offshoot go more underground (just like dwarves, elves, and gnomes) that carved itself cities there BESIDES an arbitrary decision by the writer of the fiction?

Why do all tieflings look like stereotypical devilish humans? Why aren't there dwarf tireflings and halfling tieflings? Are there normal human looking tieflings that have no devil features in a book? Why not?

Same question but for genasi. Why aren't there dragonborn or tabaxi based genasi?

Same question but for half-orcs. Where are my tortleorks or Orkliaths?

The answer to all these questions is that if you want those things in your game you can add them, but the PHB has a very limited space in which to introduce and stat out the races it has decided to include. Part of the design process did not, apparently, include a requirement that "This thing only functions as written and can't be replicated in any other way or else it's not good enough."

I can't think of any choices that can't be alternately explained by the story "Humans moved here or did such-and-such and we're changed by magic to be this new thing. You already accept that logic for tieflings, so why not couldn't it be applied to dragonborn or warforged?

 

[Don Durito]

Yeah, almost everyone else had an underdark equivalent. Where are the deep humans?

 

[pemerton]

Yeah, almost everyone else had an underdark equivalent. Where are the deep humans?

Stout halflings!

 

[Hussar]

/snip

So what keeps humans from having had an offshoot go more underground (just like dwarves, elves, and gnomes) that carved itself cities there BESIDES an arbitrary decision by the writer of the fiction?
/snip

Well, there's two issue here. One, why don't we have a human group that goes underground? Well, in game, human's can't see in the dark. Humans that stay underground too long die. So, there is that.

The other issue is, well, this is just begging a question. There are no (as far as I know) underground humans in D&D. So, claiming that there could be underground humans, so, dwarves are just like humans, is a bit strange since there are no underground humans.

OTOH, I'm hardly wedded to dwarves anyway. You want to bump them out too? Fantastic as far as I'm concerned. Would not bother me in the least.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yeah, almost everyone else had an underdark equivalent. Where are the deep humans?

biology we get soft and lose eyes down in the dark hence we can't live down there.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah. That's what I still don't quite get from this thread. Just don't play a halfling or ban them from your game. Or quit your game if you feel strongly about it. I've noted previously that the "do it my way" feeling can be rather pervasive sometimes. When it's all said and done WOTC owns the game and they probably are well aware of the backlash they would get if they removed halflings from the PHB or errata'ed them out. They run a business and want to generate revenue and that means casting a big net. Their main target audience is not people like us who quibble about what page halflings are on

Swimming upthread a bit for this quote because I think this really gets to the heart of the issue for me.

It's not that I would not play halflings or ban them from my games. It's not that at all. It's that they so rarely come up that removing them from the PHB would impact my table not at all. It would make zero difference to nearly all the campaigns I've ever played if halflings did not appear in the PHB because I've seen them played so rarely. Gnomes fit in this category too. I still remember that we played Scarred Lands in a weekly D&D game for almost two years before anyone noticed that there were no Gnomes in Scarred Lands. When 4e dropped the gnome I, like WotC ,was absolutely shocked by the reaction that it engendered.

So, yes, you are absolutely right in that we will never be able to cast off the shackled imposed on us by Tolkien fetishists. Doesn't matter how little halflings get played or used. They MUST appear in D&D because for so many people D&D=Tolkien. The reason we took thirty+ years to get our first non-Tolkien race (outside gnomes) in a PHB is for exactly this reason. Cutting out the dead weight and breaking the game away from the moldering corpse of Tolkien has been a drum I've been banging since early 3e days. If they replaced pretty much every race in the PHB with something more not appearing in Tolkien I'd be a happy camper. Let the game grow and breathe instead of tying everything down to some dude that's been dead since before I was born.

Unfortunately, it's never, ever going to happen. This thread is exactly what you'd expect if you even tried. Even suggesting that halflings be altered in some way to make them less human is met with derision and open hostility. THOU MUST NOT TOUCH THE RACES OF ALMIGHTY TOLKIEN. And so, the PHB races get less and less relevant to players with each passing year. And, IMNSHO, the game suffers for it. It stifles creativity. I mean, good grief, we haven't had an original setting in D&D since 4e. It's been almost ten years since we've had an original setting that wasn't tied to the same basic races that appeared in the 1e AD&D PHB. The most creative settings we've got for 5e are Magic the Gathering tie-ins. And that's only pretty recent. We're going to be milking that cow for a LONG time.

 

[Raduin711]

By contrast.

Humans like the comforts of home. Most humans do.

Many humans want a place to settle in peace and quiet, in safety.

Humans loving hearths and ovens and fireplaces, is a thing.

Humans love fine drink, obviously.

Humans love fine conversation, obviously. Humans are social creatures.

Most humans live in "agricultural communities", especially in a medievalesque setting.

Many humans live in nomadic cultures.

Many humans are curious and have wanderlust. This is a thing! Especially for stories about humans who set off on an adventure.

Human adventurers too love new foods, new sights, new clothes, new cultures.



The description of the Halfling 100% purely utterly completely identically totally HUMAN!

But are they?

I mean, in Dark Sun the "flip" is that halflings are barbaric cannibals who everyone is terrified of, and stay away from their jungle hideaways.

Humans can do that, too... but it's WEIRD when halflings do it. Halflings share a lot of traits with humans, but not all of them- their savagery, ambition, lust for power and search for the divine are all de-emphasized in favor of something more... utilitarian?

As for Elves, well... a race that doesn't engage in agriculture or do hard work doesn't really make sense. Elves must farm and do hard work, or... well... I guess they are REALLY etherial, then, aren't they?