D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Alzrius]

I’m not trying to win internet points.

Adhering to basic logic in discourse isn't a matter of "internet points."

 

[Chaosmancer]

Certainly this is completely setting dependent. Presumably in FR halflings have some halfling deity (Yolonda, something like that, I don't care about FR) that made them, just like the every other race. And seriously, it super doesn't matter. What the people believe about their origins might matter a bit, but that is just one tiny bit of culture and religion.

No. I covered the FR lore. Yondalla found them and then suddenly halflings went from nomad scavengers to... well I guess nomad/farmer/human-espy/happy people.

That is the reason I keep bringing it up, because while pretty much every other FR race was made by someone at some point... halflings just appear.

And again, it does matter. You say it is one tiny bit of culture and religion but it is one of the foundational questions of existence. It matters a lot.

You may feel that way. Is it also a problem to you that goblins and hobgoblins are similar to each other? Halflings in many settings are 'related' to humans, they're in Middle-Earth for example. This is really not a problem, it explains why these two species tend to get along so well.

Hobgoblins and goblins aren't similar. I actually made them more similiar in my homebrew, and am working to make goblins, hobgoblins and ogres a single species at three different stages of development. But baseline, official DnD lore? They are incredibly different races.

There are crazy number of races and subraces in D&D, every trope is done several times there are a huge amount of overlap. Drow, tieflings, shadar-kai and probably some others I forget can all do the 'mistrusted outcast of magical race' thing. There are a ton of 'big brute' races, there are five different sort of reptile people, two differnt types of cat people plus semi-cat shifters, there are like three different sorts of playable merpeople, not counting monster races such as kuo-toa and sahuagin. Any concept you can come up will have some overlap with concept of some other race. That's why I'd never put all of them in one setting. Now if you like goblins more in the niche I described, cool, go for it. I don't, goblins in this setting would be mischievous magical beings dwelling in dark places.

The issue I have with basically all the halfling complaints in this thread is that the same applies to any non-human race in the game but people just laser-focus on halflings because they personally don't care for them.

Nope. I think you are wrong.

Drow -> A race of elves who betrayed their creator god and turned their back on them. They worship spiders, are ruled by a matriarchy and are a race of slavers and sadists.

Tieflings -> a sub-set of races, normally human, who made a deal with infernal powers. The details of the deal are unclear, but the power has manifested in their bloodline shaping their children and grandchildren, even if they have not made any compact with the Hells. They are generally outcasts and mistrusted by society, and either accept that or act to prove people wrong.

Shadar-Kai -> A race of people, sometimes elves, sometimes Humans, who were trapped in the Shadowfell. In 5e they are elves who fell into the shadow fell alongside the Raven Queen, serving her eternally as they are continously reborn when they die. The previous human form of them, if memory serves, was a race of people who sought pain and ecstasy because the shadowfell sucked away their will to live, and eventually they would fade to dust and die if they did not keep themselves desiring life.

These are three quite different concepts. They really aren't interchangeable. Maybe the shadar-kai and the drow, but the shadar-kai are undergoing a shift and aren't nearly as solid as the drow which have been a continous story for decades.

Mistrusted outcast of a magical race? Sure, that's one way to play a drow. I wouldn't say it fit the new Shadar-Kai at all, what is the point in making an outcast out of someone who when they die is just going to come back anyways in a new body? And you don't have to play Drow as an outcast at all. There are other paths for them.


Big Brute races? Yeah, there are a lot of races who "I'm the big guy" is a major element to them, but Orcs, Minotaurs, Goliaths, Loxodons and Centaurs are VASTLY different. Maybe you can put Minotaur and the Orcs together, but I've seen too many different interpretations to think that that is standard.

So, no, I'm not "laser-focused" on halflings because I don't like them. And I do personally feel like it makes more sense to fold Tabaxi and Minotaurs into shifters and make "Beast-Folk" as a more general race. It is much cleaner in my opinion. But, this thread isn't about shifters. This thread is about halflings, so I try to stay on subject and not start talking about my fixes for other races.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Play one to find out!

If it has to be done by the players, then it isn't fixing the world-building issue.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Adhering to basic logic in discourse isn't a matter of "internet points."

In this case it is. I’m not debating them. I explicitly refused to do so because of how they engage in discussions about Norse myth and folklore in general.

Further, I’m never going to waste my own time collecting a bibliography of crap people can just look up themselves. If that bothers you, feel free to put me on ignore.

mid you keep pestering me about it, I’ll save you the trouble, of course.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If it has to be done by the players, then it isn't fixing the world-building issue.

World building isn’t important. Races exist to facilitate the players in making player characters.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No. I covered the FR lore. Yondalla found them and then suddenly halflings went from nomad scavengers to... well I guess nomad/farmer/human-espy/happy people.

That is the reason I keep bringing it up, because while pretty much every other FR race was made by someone at some point... halflings just appear.

And again, it does matter. You say it is one tiny bit of culture and religion but it is one of the foundational questions of existence. It matters a lot.

First of, them not having a known creator seems to have intentional choice and probably harkens back to Hobbits. But them being adopted children of Yondalla is actually somewhat unique, and it is a story. You just for some reason don't like it. But no, it seriously doesn't even matter. We know now pretty well how humans originated in the real world, but humans existed for two million years and homo sapiens for two hundred thousand years without knowing that. And they somehow managed just fine! You're obsessing about weird stuff. And sure, they had origin myths and I'm sure the fantasy folk do as well. Some might not. Part of identity of some cultures might be that 'we have always existed' or something like that. And which of these myths are actually true doesn't matter, and it is probably for the best if it isn't even determined so that we avoid silly things like someone's religion being objectively more correct.

Nope. I think you are wrong.

I am not wrong, you're just focusing on minute technical details of one setting instead of the general concept.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If it has to be done by the players, then it isn't fixing the world-building issue.

There isn't a world building issue. Or at least not any more than with any other fantasy species.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I have to chuckle. There is now this bizarre concept that a race that supposedly never goes to war, and is the only one, is worthless. Not even worthless, but completely unworthy. The idea is that this supposed people is so pathetic that they don't deserve to exist -- again, the affront is that they are the only race that believes in peace, tranquility, joy, happiness.

Holding this position is unfathomable, because believing both of these thoughts means that you feel that stories of peace and happiness cannot and must not exist. Holding this position is hypocritical, as you claim there is no story -- and yet you constantly repeat the story.

Heroes come from all walks of life. And if your table only has room for those who are constantly full of tragedy and violence I'm glad I don't play at it.

You are twisting the point and attacking a strawman.

It isn't that halflings don't go to war and therefore they are worthless, it is that they don't do much of anything, and therefore they are boring.

Also, I'm shocked to hear that no other race in the game believes in peace, happiness, tranquility and joy. I mean, before people start accusing me of twisting your words to say something that you never said, let me bold it, quote it a second time, and bold that " the affront is that they are the only race that believes in peace, tranquility, joy, happiness."

Sorry, other races believe in those things. Other people of the world enjoy simple pleasures of life and want to be happy and joyful. There are even entire religions devoted to it in the game.

Other races also have a history full of conflict. Why? Well... I think it might have something to do with the Undead, Monstrosities, Abberations, Fiends, and other forces of darkness seeking to destroy the world. Sure, it is a real shame when the elves go to war with themselves. That is a tragedy, part of why it is a tragedy is because it weakens the elves. Who are then manipulated by fiends and dark gods to try and snuff out light and happiness across the entire world. Evil is constantly on the move and threatening the gates, and heroes need to step up to stop it. That's the point of the game....

And when you look at halfling lore, you see none of that. What evil? Halflings have never had evil attacking them. Oh, sure, the books tells us that the occassional ogre or tribe of goblins might rough them up, but there is not a single story of halfling lore involving a Fiend trying to manipulate them. They don't stand up to the evil in the world. In fact, the PHB tells us that they are PROTECTED by humans and other races. Like innocent children.

But, the other races? We see churches built to fight back evil. Great cities built to guard against the dangers of the world. They have conflicts where they are actively fighting and defying the great evils.

And, I can already hear people, "but it is the small acts of kindness that-" Yeah, I know. That's what ordinary people are for. That's what the human baker giving bread to orphans is for. But DnD isn't LoTR, the greatest threat to the world isn't a power that corrupts the just and makes them tools of evil. The greatest threats are evil itself leading armies to kill and enslave the good guys. And you don't stop an army of skeletons and ghouls by being kind to your neighbor.

That is why it is so frustrating to see so little in halfling lore. They don't feel like part of the world. They feel like this little idyllic corner of non-reality. And no, again, I'm not saying that everything must always be "war, war never changes" grimdark stupidness and there is no space for kindness and light in the world, but the halflings are too far in the other direction. They are nothing but an idyllic dream of innocent children who have never sinned, and they just sit in their villages being innocent and wide-eyed. They have no beginning, they have plot armor to an insane degree, and they have nothing to make them more than short humans who do nothing but sit in idyllic farmland and smile at the sunset.

They are too disconnected from everything else in DnD. That is the problem. Not that somehow we hate them because they are pure and good and the One True Way of DnD is grim and edgy.

 

[Alzrius]

In this case it is. I’m not debating them. I explicitly refused to do so because of how they engage in discussions about Norse myth and folklore in general.

None of which is relevant. If someone else makes an assertion and doesn't back it up, calling them out on their lack of evidence is what's supposed to happen. Telling the people calling them out to go look it up themselves is an appeal to anti-intellectualism, since it advances the idea that the people calling foul on baseless assertions are the ones who are wrong. Is that really the hill you want to die on?

Further, I’m never going to waste my own time collecting a bibliography of crap people can just look up themselves. If that bothers you, feel free to put me on ignore.

You don't need to collect a bibliography; by your own "logic" - and I use the term ironically - since you're on the internet, you should just be able to look it up.

mid you keep pestering me about it, I’ll save you the trouble, of course.

Notwithstanding abusers, I think it's better to engage with people who're spreading bad ideas and let them know why they're bad (i.e. social responsibility, and all that). In this case, you're defending the idea that not only should people should be able to spread baseless assertions, but that the people calling them out on that are the ones who need to live up to the burden of proof. If that bothers you so much that you feel the need to shut out people pointing that why that's illogical, well...there's no ignore feature that will negate what that says about your character.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Adhering to basic logic in discourse isn't a matter of "internet points."

Have you seen what this very board has done to the term 'strawman'? Basic logic has no place here. The syllabus to Phil 101 is about as far as it goes.