D&D 5E My Quick and Dirty Tasha Read

[NotAYakk]

. . . Extra Attack isn't an action, so that doesn't disqualify it. That would be like saying "Haste doesn't say that you can use the Attack action to trigger Two-Weapon Fighting, so you can't do it". The rules say "When you take the Attack action" in both cases, it doesn't matter where you go the action from, it still counts for Extra Attack and for triggering the bonus action attack of Two-Weapon Fighting.

Most cantrips cannot be cast as part of the hasted action due to the "one weapon attack only" specification, but cantrips that specifically call for a weapon attack fulfill that requirement and can be cast, like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade. From my reading of the RAW, the hasted action can't be used for Thunderclap, Prestidigitation, or Fire Bolt, but could be used for Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

If you cast a spell to make one weapon attack, you didn't only do one weapon attack. You also cast a spell.

What "one weapon attack only" means is, as mentioned above, ambiguous. It could be "the only thing you can do is a single weapon attack during the attack action", or it could be "you cannot do any more than a single weapon attack" or "you can do anything so long as you intend it to contain exactly one weapon attack, cross your heart and hope to die, and you try your darnedest to make that happen" (because if your spell is countered or whatever, your action did not contain one weapon attack, it was a spell cast) or "your action, regardless of other rules, will contain one weapon attack and nothing else" (thus rendering your cantrip immune to counterspell).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, but Haste specificies a single weapon attack only. Not using your Extra attack feature. Not casting a spell.

It specifies the attack action, with 1 attack only. Thus, an attack as part of the attack action.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If you cast a spell to make one weapon attack, you didn't only do one weapon attack. You also cast a spell.

What "one weapon attack only" means is, as mentioned above, ambiguous. It could be "the only thing you can do is a single weapon attack during the attack action", or it could be "you cannot do any more than a single weapon attack" or "you can do anything so long as you intend it to contain exactly one weapon attack, cross your heart and hope to die, and you try your darnedest to make that happen" (because if your spell is countered or whatever, your action did not contain one weapon attack, it was a spell cast) or "your action, regardless of other rules, will contain one weapon attack and nothing else" (thus rendering your cantrip immune to counterspell).

The "only one weapon attack" is clearly intended to stop a level 20 Samurai Fighter with advantage on every attack from using Action Surge and a Hasted Attack Action to make 24 attacks (26 with a bonus action), and other such exploits. It is intended to stop Extra Attack from granting more attacks, not from changing what attacks you can do (normally).

If you make an attack as part of this granted Attack action that fulfills the "one weapon attack only" requirement, any additional benefits from the attack should not be barred. If you make a melee weapon attack with a bite attack that grapples a creature, the attack wouldn't be blocked because of the extra grapple feature, because it already fulfilled the prerequisite for making the attack. Any additional benefits are applied as normal. This remains true for GFB/BB.

 

[Phion]

Also, I was a little iffy on the alt cover, but in person it looks gorgeous. The shimmer gives it a lovely ethereal look.

I had the same concern but it is easily one of my favourite covers now I have it in person

 

[Chaosmancer]

. . . Extra Attack isn't an action, so that doesn't disqualify it. That would be like saying "Haste doesn't say that you can use the Attack action to trigger Two-Weapon Fighting, so you can't do it". The rules say "When you take the Attack action" in both cases, it doesn't matter where you go the action from, it still counts for Extra Attack and for triggering the bonus action attack of Two-Weapon Fighting.

Most cantrips cannot be cast as part of the hasted action due to the "one weapon attack only" specification, but cantrips that specifically call for a weapon attack fulfill that requirement and can be cast, like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade. From my reading of the RAW, the hasted action can't be used for Thunderclap, Prestidigitation, or Fire Bolt, but could be used for Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

A few things wrong with this.

First, cantrips that have an attack are still "casting a spell" that's why you can't have an eldritch knight use Booming Blade on Four attacks.

Second... I likely would be highly suspect of allowing the attack from Haste to trigger two-weapon fighting. But, considering that looking over the list of what actions are allowed under your hasted action, the only two things you can do with your main action that you can't do with the Hasted action seem to be dodge and casting a spell. So in the vast majority of cases you have already made an attack with your main action, or you could do whatever you wanted to do with your main action as your haste action, so it won't matter.

And finally, this is requiring a lot of steps. First off that the Extra Attack Feature is possible to activate during Haste. Second that the ability to swap one attack for one cantrip can be done multiple times a turn, because you already swapped one attack for one cantrip, and that you can swap your only attack for a cantrip.

Even if RAW, I think that is too much to be said to be RAI.

The "only one weapon attack" is clearly intended to stop a level 20 Samurai Fighter with advantage on every attack from using Action Surge and a Hasted Attack Action to make 24 attacks (26 with a bonus action), and other such exploits. It is intended to stop Extra Attack from granting more attacks, not from changing what attacks you can do (normally).

If you make an attack as part of this granted Attack action that fulfills the "one weapon attack only" requirement, any additional benefits from the attack should not be barred. If you make a melee weapon attack with a bite attack that grapples a creature, the attack wouldn't be blocked because of the extra grapple feature, because it already fulfilled the prerequisite for making the attack. Any additional benefits are applied as normal. This remains true for GFB/BB.

See, you are conflating a lot of things here.

For example, if an attack as the grapple rider... it is part of that attack. That is like you trying to argue you can cast spells as part of your attack because Hunter's Mark damage is part of your attack. You are talking about using an ability that is meant for "Instead of making two attacks, make one attack and one cantrip" and letting it say "instead of making an attack, you can cast a spell when you normally cannot cast a spell"

And, Haste's interactions with other spells tells us fairly clearly the intent.

Haste does not let you make a second attack with Vampiric Touch, a melee spell attack granted to you as part of the spell. Haste does not let you move Moonbeam twice. Haste does not let you use sunbeam twice. Haste does not let you use Call Lightning twice.

Haste does let you use Shadow Blade twice. Why? Because Shadowblade creates a weapon you wield to make attacks with, it is not a spell attack.

Casting a spell is not something you can do with your hasted action. And in the case where you have a single attack, I do not believe the intent is for Bladesingers Extra Attack feature to activate.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I've ended up really digging the foil covers - even Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which I detested the online images of the alt cover. If they ever come out with a Manual of the Planes, I dearly would love to see a foil riff on this:

I had the same concern but it is easily one of my favourite covers now I have it in person

 

[Zsong]

I've ended up really digging the foil covers - even Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which I detested the online images of the alt cover. If they ever come out with a Manual of the Planes, I dearly would love to see a foil riff on this:

View attachment 129465

I Own this beloved book too. And I curse any who touch it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

First, cantrips that have an attack are still "casting a spell" that's why you can't have an eldritch knight use Booming Blade on Four attacks.

The Bladesinger can cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, instead of the Cast a Spell action.

Second... I likely would be highly suspect of allowing the attack from Haste to trigger two-weapon fighting. But, considering that looking over the list of what actions are allowed under your hasted action, the only two things you can do with your main action that you can't do with the Hasted action seem to be dodge and casting a spell. So in the vast majority of cases you have already made an attack with your main action, or you could do whatever you wanted to do with your main action as your haste action, so it won't matter.

It works RAW, same as this combo. Two-Weapon Fighting requires you to take the attack action, so if you do that with your Hasted action and Cast a Spell with your first action, you still get a bonus action attack if you are dual wielding.

And finally, this is requiring a lot of steps. First off that the Extra Attack Feature is possible to activate during Haste. Second that the ability to swap one attack for one cantrip can be done multiple times a turn, because you already swapped one attack for one cantrip, and that you can swap your only attack for a cantrip.

Even if RAW, I think that is too much to be said to be RAI.

We currently have no comment from Jeremy Crawford on whether this was RAI, so there's no reason to suspect that this was or was not RAI. I don't think they specifically were trying to allow this combo RAW, because the game designers aren't very good at finding exploits in the game's mechanics, but unless JC comes and explicitly says "you should not allow this combo at your game" or they make an errata or Sage Advice to get rid of this combination, I'll allow it. It's RAW, after all, and requires you to concentrate on a spell.

For example, if an attack as the grapple rider... it is part of that attack. That is like you trying to argue you can cast spells as part of your attack because Hunter's Mark damage is part of your attack. You are talking about using an ability that is meant for "Instead of making two attacks, make one attack and one cantrip" and letting it say "instead of making an attack, you can cast a spell when you normally cannot cast a spell"

It's not the same thing, as there is no feature that allows you to do Hunter's Mark as part of the same attack, and doesn't grant you extra actions. Extra Attack grants you an extra action, which you can use to Attack, while the Bladesinger's Extra Attack lets them replace an attack with a cantrip. You still have to fulfill the requirement of "one weapon attack" from Haste, which is why you're restricted to GFB and BB. It's really very simple.

Haste does not let you make a second attack with Vampiric Touch, a melee spell attack granted to you as part of the spell. Haste does not let you move Moonbeam twice. Haste does not let you use sunbeam twice. Haste does not let you use Call Lightning twice.

Because those would be actions not allowed in the spell's description. A cantrip cast as part of the Attack action is the Attack action (which is allowed by Haste), not the Casting a Spell action.

Haste does let you use Shadow Blade twice. Why? Because Shadowblade creates a weapon you wield to make attacks with, it is not a spell attack.

(As long as an ally has the Haste up, that is.)
That is correct, and it is because Shadow Blade lets you take the Attack action with it (unlike Flame Blade, for some unknown and probably idiotic reason). Doesn't have much to do with the current discussion, as we all know that the Attack action is not the same as the Cast a Spell action.

Casting a spell is not something you can do with your hasted action. And in the case where you have a single attack, I do not believe the intent is for Bladesingers Extra Attack feature to activate.

Specific beats general. The general rule is that you can't take the Cast a Spell action from the Hasted action, but the Hasted action allows you to Attack. The BS's EA lets you replace an attack with a cantrip as part of the Attack action, so the combo works. The key fits the whole.

I don't believe they designed the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature specifically to allow this combo, but as they currently have said nothing on the matter, there isn't any sign that they do not want this combination to be viable.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Specific beats general. The general rule is that you can't take the Cast a Spell action from the Hasted action, but the Hasted action allows you to Attack. The BS's EA lets you replace an attack with a cantrip as part of the Attack action, so the combo works. The key fits the whole.

I don't believe they designed the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature specifically to allow this combo, but as they currently have said nothing on the matter, there isn't any sign that they do not want this combination to be viable.

I see where your argument is coming from. Try this idea to see where the counter is coming from:

Haste's Attack Action says "one weapon attack only". Even if all the interactions should be parsed as you propose (which is reasonable), one weapon attack + cantrip can be seen as not only a weapon attack. I think the conceptual gist is that haste restricts that Action to one specific thing, and the Bladesinger special option isn't only that, it's more.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I see where your argument is coming from. Try this idea to see where the counter is coming from:

Haste's Attack Action says "one weapon attack only". Even if all the interactions should be parsed as you propose (which is reasonable), one weapon attack + cantrip can be seen as not only a weapon attack. I think the conceptual gist is that haste restricts that Action to one specific thing, and the Bladesinger special option isn't only that, it's more.

I can see how one would interpret it that way, but I disagree with it. The "one weapon attack only" is meant to block Extra Attack, Thirsting Blade, and Multiattack from granting multiple attacks as that same action. There are two different readings of the meaning of the word "only" in that context:

1. It refers to the quantity of the attacks, meaning that the number of the attacks that can be granted by that action is limited to one.
2. It refers to the quality of the attack, meaning that the attack you make has to be a melee weapon attack and only a melee weapon attack, with nothing else on top of it.

The reason I think that 1 is the intended usage is that it is very obvious that the intention of the writing was to block there from being multiple attacks in one round, not to block this combination, as this combination was literally impossible until TCoE, and due to the fact that the game designers currently seem unaware that this combo is possible, it is also safe to say that they didn't write that rule intending that a combo like this one would be impossible. If WotC isn't aware of combos they just created, they wouldn't be able to predict this combo 6 years ago.

Additionally, if you went with ruling number 2, then any feature that allows a character to add an effect onto the attack after attacking would be blocked by this interpretation (such as Stunning Strike, Divine Smite, or any other effect not a part of the melee weapon attack).

Another reason why the meaning of the word "only" is clearly the first meaning is due to the fact that if you chose that meaning, RAW, a level 20 Fighter with Haste cast on them could make 4 attacks as part of the Hasted action, as long as they were just melee weapon attacks and no additional effects. That is obviously not the intention, so it is clear that the first meaning of the word "only" in this context denotes the quantity of the attacks, not the quality.

If the quality isn't the thing that matters, then as long as the Attack action is made to do a melee weapon attack once, all other effects that are additional to the base melee weapon attack would be legal for use on this attack (Booming Blade, Divine Smite, Stunning Strike, etc).