D&D 5E My Quick and Dirty Tasha Read

[Chaosmancer]

Doesn't have much to do with the current discussion, as we all know that the Attack action is not the same as the Cast a Spell action.

Specific beats general. The general rule is that you can't take the Cast a Spell action from the Hasted action, but the Hasted action allows you to Attack. The BS's EA lets you replace an attack with a cantrip as part of the Attack action, so the combo works. The key fits the whole.

I don't believe they designed the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature specifically to allow this combo, but as they currently have said nothing on the matter, there isn't any sign that they do not want this combination to be viable.

Let me ask you a question. A Bladesinger is hit by the slow spell, meaning they can only take a single action, and only a single attack with that action.

They use Booming Blade.

Did they take the attack action or cast a spell? Can you even tell?

I can see how one would interpret it that way, but I disagree with it. The "one weapon attack only" is meant to block Extra Attack, Thirsting Blade, and Multiattack from granting multiple attacks as that same action. There are two different readings of the meaning of the word "only" in that context:

1. It refers to the quantity of the attacks, meaning that the number of the attacks that can be granted by that action is limited to one.
2. It refers to the quality of the attack, meaning that the attack you make has to be a melee weapon attack and only a melee weapon attack, with nothing else on top of it.

The reason I think that 1 is the intended usage is that it is very obvious that the intention of the writing was to block there from being multiple attacks in one round, not to block this combination, as this combination was literally impossible until TCoE, and due to the fact that the game designers currently seem unaware that this combo is possible, it is also safe to say that they didn't write that rule intending that a combo like this one would be impossible. If WotC isn't aware of combos they just created, they wouldn't be able to predict this combo 6 years ago.

Additionally, if you went with ruling number 2, then any feature that allows a character to add an effect onto the attack after attacking would be blocked by this interpretation (such as Stunning Strike, Divine Smite, or any other effect not a part of the melee weapon attack).

Another reason why the meaning of the word "only" is clearly the first meaning is due to the fact that if you chose that meaning, RAW, a level 20 Fighter with Haste cast on them could make 4 attacks as part of the Hasted action, as long as they were just melee weapon attacks and no additional effects. That is obviously not the intention, so it is clear that the first meaning of the word "only" in this context denotes the quantity of the attacks, not the quality.

If the quality isn't the thing that matters, then as long as the Attack action is made to do a melee weapon attack once, all other effects that are additional to the base melee weapon attack would be legal for use on this attack (Booming Blade, Divine Smite, Stunning Strike, etc).

Okay, but you miss that there is a fundamental difference between the Bladesingers ability and a Divine Smite.

The Bladesinger's ability is part of them making two attacks. It is literally tied into their Extra Attack Feature. Reread the feature "You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks."

It is clearly and explicitly meant to be part of using your extra attack to make two attacks, then replacing one of those two attacks with a cantrip.

Divine Smite is different. It states "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, "

Did you hit them with an attack? Yes? You can do this. Did you hit them with a second attack? Doesn't matter, because the number of attacks doesn't matter. If you broke all reason in the game and made 500 attacks, you could divine smite for as many as you had spell slots for. Because the Divine Smite ability only cares about hitting with a melee weapon attack.

Do you have Holy Weapon up? You get to add that to any attack you make with the weapon. Is the weapon a flametongue? You get to add those dice to any attack you make with that weapon.


But, again, the Bladesinger's ability is that when they take the Extra Attack action, and they make two attacks, they can turn one of those attacks into a cantrip. It doesn't say "Whenever you make a melee weapon attack, you can cast a cantrip instead of making the melee weapon attack." It says when you would use Extra Attack, you can turn one of those two attacks into a cantrip.

By your reading a Dual-Wielding Blade Singer could cast Booming Blade as a bonus action, by replacing the dual-wielding attack with a cantrip. And that is not the intent of the ability, or what it says you can do.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I see where your argument is coming from. Try this idea to see where the counter is coming from:

Haste's Attack Action says "one weapon attack only". Even if all the interactions should be parsed as you propose (which is reasonable), one weapon attack + cantrip can be seen as not only a weapon attack. I think the conceptual gist is that haste restricts that Action to one specific thing, and the Bladesinger special option isn't only that, it's more.

I’ve never seen anyone argue that you can’t grapple, shove, trip, etc, with the hasted action.
You can do those, and a Bladesinger can cast one of their cantrips, for the same reason.

By your reading a Dual-Wielding Blade Singer could cast Booming Blade as a bonus action, by replacing the dual-wielding attack with a cantrip. And that is not the intent of the ability, or what it says you can do.

This doesn’t follow. They were quite clear that their reading requires BB be cast in place of an attack as part of the attack action. Which is correct.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Let me ask you a question. A Bladesinger is hit by the slow spell, meaning they can only take a single action, and only a single attack with that action.

They use Booming Blade.

Did they take the attack action or cast a spell? Can you even tell?

You can't visually tell a difference by the effects that are produced, but there is a mechanical difference. They're different actions. If there was a feature for a rogue that lets them replace their attack with a Dodge action, but keeps it a part of the Attack action, when they Dodge this way they will actually be taking the Attack action, even though there is no visual difference between the effects that are produced.

No obvious difference, but there is a difference in the type of Action you take. 99 times out of 100 it will not matter, but it matters in this case.

Okay, but you miss that there is a fundamental difference between the Bladesingers ability and a Divine Smite.

The Bladesinger's ability is part of them making two attacks. It is literally tied into their Extra Attack Feature. Reread the feature "You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks."

It is clearly and explicitly meant to be part of using your extra attack to make two attacks, then replacing one of those two attacks with a cantrip.

Divine Smite is different. It states "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, "

Did you hit them with an attack? Yes? You can do this. Did you hit them with a second attack? Doesn't matter, because the number of attacks doesn't matter. If you broke all reason in the game and made 500 attacks, you could divine smite for as many as you had spell slots for. Because the Divine Smite ability only cares about hitting with a melee weapon attack.

Do you have Holy Weapon up? You get to add that to any attack you make with the weapon. Is the weapon a flametongue? You get to add those dice to any attack you make with that weapon.


But, again, the Bladesinger's ability is that when they take the Extra Attack action, and they make two attacks, they can turn one of those attacks into a cantrip. It doesn't say "Whenever you make a melee weapon attack, you can cast a cantrip instead of making the melee weapon attack." It says when you would use Extra Attack, you can turn one of those two attacks into a cantrip.

If you read the feature as "one weapon attack only", where the only refers to the quality of the attack, you can't add Divine Smite, because that is doing more than just making a melee weapon attack.

Additionally, Haste's Attack action requirement never states "Features with the name Extra Attack can not be used with this action", it very explicitly states "One weapon attack only". Whether or not the ability to replace an attack with a cantrip is part of the Extra Attack feature does not matter, as the writing of the Extra Attack feature does not make that fact matter.

By your reading a Dual-Wielding Blade Singer could cast Booming Blade as a bonus action, by replacing the dual-wielding attack with a cantrip. And that is not the intent of the ability, or what it says you can do.

Absolutely not by any reading of the rules. That's a strawman argument if I've ever saw one. A bonus action attack from Two Weapon Fighting is not an attack action. If it was written the same way as Haste, that combination would work, but it is not written that way. If Haste was written the same way as Two Weapon Fighting, this combo would not be legal.

A Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action attack is not the Attack action, while the Hasted attack is written as part of the Attack action.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I’ve never seen anyone argue that you can’t grapple, shove, trip, etc, with the hasted action.
You can do those, and a Bladesinger can cast one of their cantrips, for the same reason.

Just going to quickly correct you. RAW, you can neither shove nor grapple with the Hasted action, as it specifically requires "one weapon attack". Grapples and shoves are stated in the PHB to be "special melee attacks," not melee weapon attacks. Therefore, it is technically illegal to grapple or shove using the Hasted action.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Just going to quickly correct you. RAW, you can neither shove nor grapple with the Hasted action, as it specifically requires "one weapon attack". Grapples and shoves are stated in the PHB to be "special melee attacks," not melee weapon attacks. Therefore, it is technically illegal to grapple or shove using the Hasted action.

Eh, I think that’s much too legalistic a reading of the rule, so I don’t really care, but whatever.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Eh, I think that’s much too legalistic a reading of the rule, so I don’t really care, but whatever.

It doesn't really matter. Any DM I know would allow it. It doesn't create any sort of imbalance.

 

[Maxperson]

It is actually a weapon attack (a melee weapon attack, to be precise), but it isn't an attack with a (melee) weapon. An unarmed strike cannot be used for Divine Smite RAW, because it calls for "a weapon" in the text of Divine Smite. However, you can use it for the Hasted action "as it says "one weapon attack only".

Which is rule silliness. If a Paladin wants to smite someone with his fist in my game, he's welcome to do it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Which is rule silliness. If a Paladin wants to smite someone with his fist in my game, he's welcome to do it.

I 100% agree. Rule of Cool. I don't care what the rules say on this matter, punching someone with a bright, smiting fist should be legal, so it is at my tables.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I 100% agree. Rule of Cool. I don't care what the rules say on this matter, punching someone with a bright, smiting fist should be legal, so it is at my tables.

Smite punching is way too rad not to allow.

This is a small part of why I allow Rangers and Paladins to take the full suite of fighting styles. Why not let a Paladin be a Sacred Fist or whatever?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Smite punching is way too rad not to allow.

This is a small part of why I allow Rangers and Paladins to take the full suite of fighting styles. Why not let a Paladin be a Sacred Fist or whatever?

One Punch Paladin! Punching shadows with fists of light to destroy them.

Yeah, I would allow the Unarmed Fighting Style for Paladins and Rangers.