My ranger Poll results: See last post. (was beating the Ranger with a better stick)

[Michael Tree]

Re: Help me beat the Ranger's dead horse with a better stick!

5 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
5 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
4 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
3 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
2 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
3 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
5 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
3 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
5 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
5 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
3 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour
The penalties to stealth and movement skills should be enough of an encouragement to wear light armor.

 

[nHammer]

5 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
4 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
3 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
3 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
4 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
2 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
4 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
4 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
3 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
5 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
4 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour

 

[mmadsen]

5 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
If the Ranger's schtick is that he's a woodsman, he should be able to track. Other Feats and Special Abilities fit the ranger archetype well too: Endurance, Running, Animal Companion, Sneak Attack, etc.

3 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
The Rogue BAB wouldn't be the end of the world.

2 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
I see Endurance fitting much, much better than a d10 Hit Die; that's more about being a melee-fighting machine.

2 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
If anything, the Ranger should have Sneak Attack (to fit the guerilla archetype) and perhaps archery Feats (to fit the Robin Hood archetype).

1 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
Not at all.

1 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
The Ranger's (and Paladin's) spellcasting abilities scream "Prestige Class!" I can't believe they passed up the opportunity to use a new mechanic like that where it would fit so perfectly!

4 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
Six or eight.

3 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
It fits some Rangers better than Fortitude. Either might fit.

4 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
Not all Rangers should have Animal Companions, but it should be an option.

5 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
I can't see why they would have any such restrictions.

2 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
I'm not sure why a woodsman/scout would be a Prestige Class, but the current Ranger might make an Elven Sentinel Prestige Class (or something).

4 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour
It needn't be heavy-handed. If the class has stealthy skills and abilities, players will choose light armor for their characters.

As I've said before, the ranger archetype fits the Rogue better than the Ranger in most ways.

 

[Arnwyn]

4 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
5 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
4 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
5 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
1 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
4 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
4 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
1 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
5 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
1 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
5 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour

 

[Zaruthustran]

Re: Help me beat the Ranger's dead horse with a better stick!

5 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
5 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
4 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
1 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
1 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
4 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
4 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
3 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
4 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
5 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
3 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour


Above all else, I think the Ranger needs more wilderness class abilities, and class abilities that he can share with the rest of the group. I see the Ranger as a Guide, like Aragorn. Someone who can keep a group moving and protected in the wild, and can deal with adverse conditions/strange monsters.

What I don't want is a Fighter: someone automatically skilled in TWF, or automatically skilled in Archery, or whatever.

-z

 

[Plane Sailing]

Rav, I like the idea of your survey, but I disagree with your questions! The direction of the questions have some common factors behind them which do not gel with things that I see as important, or assume solutions which might not (in fact) be the best way of resolving a problem.

I'll be interested to see the results of this particular survey, and I don't want to cause problems by going off at a tangent , but I'd be happy to discuss other questions that might be worth asking either on email or on a different thread!

Cheers

 

[Ravellion]

Planesailing, I am starting a new thread for discussion. I do not have much time in the upcoming days though, but I'll do my best.

Rav

 

[mseds99]

5 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
2 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
1 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
2 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
1 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
3 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
5 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
4 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
4 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
1 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
5 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour

I always thought of rangers as rogues/scouts of the forest. I think they should have bonus feats that can be used for combat or skills.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

5 - 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
5 - 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
5 - 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
2 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
1 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
3 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
4 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
2 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
3 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
4 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
5 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
4 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour


My own thoughts on the above:
I dont see the need for the Ranger to be a melee powerhouse. We already have the Fighter and the Barbarian for that. I dont see any great reason for the Ranger to need to get alot of Combat feats like the Two Weapon Fighting skills or Archery skills. A ranger should have wilderness oriented survival abilities. However, he is not a "Druidic Paladin". The class as written in the PHB seems to put him into that role.

I see a Ranger as being a Warrior who serves the needs of civilization in the Wilderness by keeping an eye on monsters and humanoids. They protect civilization from the worst that civilization has to offer. To that end, they learn the ways of the wilderness and use those ways against the enemies of their society. For humans, this means keeping an eye on Orcs, Goblins and Giants. For Elves, add human invaders to that list.

The special abilities in the PHB do not do an adequate job of reflecting that role. The Favored enemy progression is at best marginally useful. You are encouraged to either choose too powerful enemies at 1st level to have a good bonus for enemies at 15th and 20th, or you end up at 20th level with a +5 to hit goblins that you dont need. The two weapon fighting is nice, but the artifical armor restriction is stupid, and it does not reflect the class role. The spells are the most over looked ability, since they do improve with level, but they do not help much with combat. Paladins not only get the spells, but they also get a healing ability and a turning ability that improves rationally with the passage of time.

If the rangers favored enemy bonus had a better progression scheme that scaled in utility with level, it would be much improved. Something to the tune of +1 per 4 levels, and the bonus applies to all favored enemies. Add to that some bonus feats that make sense. Feats like Endurance, Run, Tracking, Quick Draw, Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will. Those are all very decent feats and they free up the character progression feats to allow the Ranger to take the combat feats instead. Maybe make Alertness a class feature. Maybe give them +6 skill points if you take the spells away, otherwise keep it at +4 and start the spells per day at 1 instead of zero. Or leave the spells and skills alone if the rest of the above changes are made.

The result would be an effective warrior who is very effective against certain enemies, able to fight in very adverse conditions in nearly any terrain. He would be very physically cabapable, and able to perform some useful magic. Most importantly, he class defining abilities (The favored enemy and bonus feats) would scale with level much better. And the only time such a Ranger could possibly out perform a Fighter or Barbarian in combat would be when he is fighting against a favored enemy.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gargoyle]

5- 1)The ranger needs to be able to track from first level onwards, hence needs it as a bonus feat.
5- 2)The Ranger should have a +1 BAB/Level
5- 3)The ranger, being a rugged outdoorsman needs at least a d10 hitdie.
5 - 4)The ranger needs extra feats that help him in combat, such as Point blank shot or Two Weapon Fighting
3 - 5)Provided the ranger needs the feats discussed in 4, he needs them in the first 3 levels
1 - 6)The ranger needs to be able to cast some divine spells (disregard the spell Animal friendship for this question)
5 - 7)The ranger needs 6 skill points per level to fulfill his role
3 - 8)The ranger needs a good reflex save
4 - 9)The ranger needs to be able to acquire an animal companion
5 - 10)The ranger must not have multiclass restrictions
3 - 11)The ranger needs to be a core class, as opposed to being a prestige class
5 - 12)The ranger needs to either be forced or encouraged to wear light armour

(Failed Will save against semi-threadjack) - I detest Track being a feat, and believe it should have been a skill, with only rangers having it as a class skill (not exclusive though). Other uses of Wilderness Lore can be done with Knowledge Nature.