My "Savage" Experience

Oh no. They weren't doing any of the more "advanced" combat stuff. We were lucky to be able to count raises, look at AP, and all that.
That might be part of the problem. While I like Savage Worlds quite a bit, I'm not one of that fanboys who can't see its faults. When the PCs are fighting extras who either have a high Parry, a high Toughness, or both, the players really need to use the rules to their advantage otherwise its often an exercise in frustration. If a player is new to the system you can't really expect them to know what's what though. For an introductory scenario, I wouldn't have written one with particularly tough extras as I want everyone to just get used to how the rules work.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

@Retreater --- I can relate.

In my 8-year run with SW from 2011 to 2019, I had probably six or seven different battles that played out that way. It doesn't happen very often; normally if the dice are behaving, combat really is a fun, furious (though less fast than one might expect, as you found) experience.

But it is basically something that will occasionally "just happen" when the dice are off and your players aren't synergizing well.

The one battle that put me over the edge was the second-to-last battle of my 14-month fantasy campaign. By that point the PCs were all close to Legendary tier, they all had epic gear and stats. And so to fight them, I put equivalent Wild Card enemies on the table, with similar parry and toughness.

And it just dragged on, and on, and on. One player's character should have died (but had a "Golden Bennie" because it was his birthday, so used it to auto-raise his incapacitation roll).

And then a year later, it happened again in another fantasy campaign where I was a player, not GM, and at that point my love for system started waning.

Until two weeks ago when a buddy of mine and I came up with these house rules:


We've done two playtests with these so far, so it's hardly extensive, but the results have been very positive and absolutely in line for what I was looking for, which was to avoid the situation in the future.
 

That might be part of the problem. While I like Savage Worlds quite a bit, I'm not one of that fanboys who can't see its faults. When the PCs are fighting extras who either have a high Parry, a high Toughness, or both, the players really need to use the rules to their advantage otherwise its often an exercise in frustration.
I don't know if that is much of a fault on its own. But combined with bad adventure design, sure.

If a player is new to the system you can't really expect them to know what's what though. For an introductory scenario, I wouldn't have written one with particularly tough extras as I want everyone to just get used to how the rules work.
I wish I owned the book. I am very curious what the stat blocks and encounter setup looked like.
 

I can't speak of the rules lookup issues, because I'm not familiar with the scenario, though it normally shouldn't be difficult to do a gunfight, even one with auto weapons and grenades. You can get some artifacts with Toughness levels too out of proportion to the the weapons on the other side, but unless you're firing at people ensconced in heavy cover (and continue doing so when it becomes an obvious problem), the dice have to be betraying you pretty strongly to not be getting fairly frequent raises given other elements of the system.

That said, as others have noted, that's a pretty high Toughness value from what I recall. Dead average humans have a 5 Toughness; ballistic vests may have a +4 versus guns, but its not super hard to shoot around vests (and they're largely useless against grenades), but if people were just banging away...
 

One of the reasons I like SW is just how chaotic it can be. That said, it should be chaotically "fast, furious, and fun" and never slow, sleepy, and boring! Next time a situation like that happens, don't hesitate to "fix" things in the moment to get the game back on track. Make those Bennies rain!

Then note the reason things got held up so you can fix them ahead of time, such as the high toughness. The good thing about SW is there isn't a lot of moving parts, so once you get a feel for the values and how the math works, all of your SW games from here on (even if using a different setting) will continue to run more smoothly.

Some guides I've found that might be useful:
First, is a chart (from Lord_Inar) that lists out skill success probabilities:
1733885083259.webp


(Start with TN and subtract any bonuses being used then find the appropriate character/die type to find % chance of success)

Second, is a fan made bestiary with loads of great stat blocks!

Good luck!

Also, if you ever want to run an OSR like SW game, I can't recommend Tyrnador enough! One of the best campaigns of any system I've ever ran.
 
Last edited:


I obviously wasn’t there to see the game play out @Retreater, however I have Lost Colony and I am half way through running that campaign.

First off - this isn’t an introductory adventure. It isn’t described as an introductory adventure. It’s intended for Seasoned characters, which is an unwritten assumption and therefore could obviously be more clear. But if you start the game with people who have never played the system before (in real terms, given you group’s reported history) they might find things tricky. You say the players are using the archetypes, which are seasoned, so in theory up to the job from a stats perspective - more on that later.

Lost Colony is a slightly strange campaign setup. As a somewhat lawless frontier location with advanced tech people who go looking for trouble tend to wear body armour. So humanoid enemies are often Toughness 9(4). It’s actually worse than that if you read the rules - this is a bit of a rushed product in my opinion and most of those armours should actually have ballistic protection added on so would be 13(4) versus bullets. I my campaign I play this as Kevlar body armour and people rarely wearing helmets so head shots have become very common, or they close to melee where the ballistic protection would not apply.

In terms of the opening there are a few things I would comment on.

First, the second group of combatants in the fight are local militia fighting against the insurgents. So the system expects the GM to hand those off to the players to run. I appreciate that this makes it potentially tricker for the players but Extras are pretty easy to run. I just printed out their stats (smaller than a post-it note) and told them you are controlling these four guys. In your group I would have given the NPCs to your two more ‘engaged’ players to run, either two each our four to one of them.

You mention that they were struggling with high rate-of-fire. Looking at the Archetypes and assuming you used them without modification then only one character has a RoF weapon - the ex EXFOR trooper. They have an edge to eliminate the penalty when shooting with RoF so would be rolling four d8 and one d6 looking for 4+ to hit. They should have been getting lots of hits unless the enemy were turtled up in cover. Their gun does 2d8 damage so the average result should shake enemies, too. Using bennies to turn unlucky results into average results is a good way of looking at how to use them, and situations like the EXFOR soldier shooting and missing badly would be prime examples of that.

Two more things.

First, the insurgents are not there to be killed, they are there to set the scene. The ‘good’ outcome of the adventure is that the party take out at least half of them and they surrender. But even if they escape the party has still come together and is in contact with the BDF who will give them the next part of the adventure as a mission. The way I would play the fight is that the insurgents are doing a fighting withdrawal, and if the fight gets drawn out they try to flee. I might even call it at that point and give all the players a Bennie as a reward for driving them off. The key thing here is that fights do not have to be about killing all the opposition. In many cases, the opposition will be intelligent and seek to run away when the odds turn against them. If they are animalistic enemies then they are also likely to flee if they discover ’lunch’ is a lot more tricky to catch than they thought. Fighting to the death is a common approach for many groups but it really doesn’t need to be that way in Savage Worlds where you don’t get XP for killing enemies and so there is no sense of ‘cheating the game’ if you ‘win’ by causing a route.

Finally, all combats are kind of intended to be a big deal in Savage Worlds. Any attack could result in death! So while I agree that an introductory fight should be relatively quick and easy to help the players get their heads around the system and understand the risks / chances of success that their characters are facing - this wasn’t designed as an introductory fight. If I was using it as an introductory fight then I would have gone more on getting the PCs to run the NPC militia to get the basics of attack and damage while their own PCs lives were not at risk. In future, if you are facing a filler combat, use the Dangerous Quick Encounter rules instead to limit the chance of TPK while keeping the in-world fight and risk of some attrition.

Savage Worlds isn’t a perfect game, and Lost Colony is one of the weaker books in the line though still a lot of fun. The weakness manifests in slightly weaker editing, and no physical bookmarks which most of their new books have sewn in. But I haven’t personally experienced a car-crash of the scale you describe. I know your group have challenges with even reading and remembering the rules, but that is a problem for pretty much any system I would think?
 
Last edited:

SW is my goto system and I only have good and fun experiences. But:
  • I'm almost silly generous with Bennies, mostly because my players doesn't hoard them for combat but use them for fun/stupid/creative stuff.
  • I usually home-brew campaigns in most systems. So when we started with the system I kept the power level of the opposition low and gradually raised it, to allow both me and my players to get a sense of how SW works at different opposition levels, and they learned that they actually had to be smart, employ tactics and non-head-on-solutions for some encounters.
  • Having read up a bit on the system before we started, I really nagged on my players for a dozen sessions about the need for them to engage with the full system, and that simply bonking bags of hp with a stick like in for example 5e wasn't gonna work.
 

Not often. And when they did, it still wasn't enough to do more than Shake an enemy.
I gave them a pretty good allotment of Bennies as well. Just bad rolling coupled with really high Toughness.
The session that happened for me, it was because they would pick a target each; that lead to a bunch of shaken targets which recovered... but once they were reminded that a second level of shaken is in fact a wound, it suddenly gets effective, and fast.
 

@dbm , that's certainly a lot to process. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.

I had no idea it wasn't an introductory adventure - because it sure seems framed that way. It's the first adventure listed in the book and has advice for "getting the party together." Likewise, I didn't notice that the archetypes were Seasoned adventurers - I thought most archetype cards from other Savage settings listed if they were Seasoned. (As you noted, everyone had an archetype so everyone was Seasoned, as it turned it.)

I did run the BDF allies in the first encounter - they joined in the battle and took the brunt of the attacks. Giving them to the players would've been probably even more frustrating than just handling them myself as the players were trying to learn the system.

I did have the insurgents stay too long - they didn't flee once they got reduced to half numbers. However, to be fair, the "clean up" of the last half of them went quick - it took ages just to drop a couple of them. The PC death was also very quick in the combat. I don't think much would've changed had they fled at half strength.

The Rate-of-Fire question. I think we had a character who had a RoF 2 weapon. The confusion came from "I can take two shooting actions" or "I can fire twice with a RoF" - either way, it's a -2 penalty. Why does this matter?
 

Remove ads

Top