My solution

[Andor]

Those of us on the simulationist side of the gamer spectrum, those of us who think that the rules must reflect a reality that those in the game world are aware of, that abstract hitpoints are absurd because they fail the "does that make sense" test on the basis of falling, and fire, and rider effects, and touch attacks, etc....

We've been having some trouble getting our heads around the healing rules in 4e, and I think I've come up with a solution, that I at least can work with. It's not that HP are abstract and no blood has been shed until the final stroke, quite the opposite. Each loss of HP is an actual wound, and the character is near death at 1 or 2 HP but it's not death from a critical injury like a severed artery or punctured kidney, it's cumulative fatigue, shock, and bloodloss. So conversely when a charater has been (nonmagically) healed after a 6 hour rest, it's not that all his wounds have cleanly healed into smooth scars, instead he is still covered in bandages. But! All his wounds have been cleanly bound, he has his wind back, the shock is gone, and he has replaced his lost fluids. It's not that the wounds are gone, but they no longer hamper him enough to be reflected by the game system.

One could argue against the realism of a game where all wounds are flesh wounds, but so what? Until D&D has a system for loss of limbs and eyes, why worry about internal organs?

Anyway, thinking about it this way, I can internalize 4e a bit better. What do you think?

 

[Ovinnik]

Uhm, I personally think this makes a lot less sense, and is a lot less believable, than the completely abstract HP system.

 

[Khuxan]

I'm very impressed by Mustrum Ridcully's idea that "Healing Surges per Day" is actually "Wound Points", and that only one healing surge returns per 6-hour rest. I think in a non-magical game this is a great way to have characters on max hit points after 6 hours and still represent accumulated wounds, fatigue and stress.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I'm very impressed by Mustrum Ridcully's idea that "Healing Surges per Day" is actually "Wound Points", and that only one healing surge returns per 6-hour rest. I think in a non-magical game this is a great way to have characters on max hit points after 6 hours and still represent accumulated wounds, fatigue and stress.

I also like the idea of having your max number of healing surges reduced by one whenever a character takes a crit or drops into the negatives (though perhaps limiting the reduction to once per encounter), and these lost surges are only recovered at a rate of one per day.

 

[bramadan]

I think it has been tried before and does not work except as a placebo.
I was (am) simulationist gamer and I gave up on DnD long ago because it frustrated me out of my mind by its many inconsistencies with any sort of real (or even literary/fictional) world.

My admittedly limited personal experience (decent fencer, some archery) as well as any literature I could get hold of, told me just how utterly unrealistic DnD combat is related to anything even remotely done by human beings. Silliness goes to the point where even DnD novels do not follow DnD rules of what can kill people and how because they would seem much to weird.

I tried any number of rationalizations and justifications for Hit Points, Armor Class etc including one you are proposing and could not in good consciousness hold to any of them. No matter how you turn it - DnD does not simulate real world, it does not even simulate what happens in books or most fantasy movies.

When I realized this I tried bunch of other RP systems with more or less effect and ended up writing up a whole rules-system to go with my campaign setting. I went for literary-fictional instead of "realistic" and so far it works very well and I am GMing a campaign right now using those rules.

What am I doing at the 4ed DnD forums then, I can hear you ask. Fact is, my rules (and any other rules that are even remotely simulationist) lead to a style of play that is - no surprise - very similar to how real people behave. That means that lethal combat will be very very rare. (PCs - even the ones with combat skills - will avoid it at all costs because risks of injury and death are considerable). This means that your campaign will be composed of: intrigue, travel, puzzle solving, some chases, investigation and other things of that ilk, with rare sprinkle of very very dramatic combat with potentially campaign ending results.

This is great stuff and I love it, however, sometimes it is just fun to play a tactical combat game with persistent character, driven by some sort of plot.

When you feel like scratching that itch you can't do better then DnD and from what I can see so far you cant do better then DnD 4.

My advice to you is: simulationist gaming is great, it is demanding on the GM (takes more time and effort to come up with adventures and setting when you cant rely on just throwing some Gnolls at the party) but is fun and rewarding. Don't use DnD for your simulationist gaming needs. Plot driven series of tactical mini games set in a fantasy setting is also great, when you play it forget about the simulation. DnD is awesome at it.

To sum it up using DnD for simulationist gaming is like using your stereo system to toast bread - you can almost do it but you will end up with sucky toast and will end up hating your stereo for it.

 

[Kishin]

To sum it up using DnD for simulationist gaming is like using your stereo system to toast bread - you can almost do it but you will end up with sucky toast and will end up hating your stereo for it.

This is possibly one of the best things I've ever heard said about D&D and simulationist gaming. Requesting permission to put it in my sig.

It really just comes down to the toolset you're using to build your reality. D&D and simulationism has always felt like square pegs in round holes to me.

Of course, this isn't saying that you can't do awesome intrigue, puzzle solving, etc. based story arcs in D&D. But that's neither here or there, as storytelling is a system independent concept.

 

[VannATLC]

To sum it up using DnD for simulationist gaming is like using your stereo system to toast bread - you can almost do it but you will end up with sucky toast and will end up hating your stereo for it.

Best. Analogy. Ever.

 

[Miar]

Looks like the new way of healing will get a lot of pondering. In trying to wrap my head around it I wondered if you could look at total hit points not as just hit points but the total being hit points times your healing surges a day. Your normal hit points would reflect what you could take in a short amount of time or massive damage. A hit for 1/4 (or 6th whatever your healing surge percentage) your total (ie all of your regular hit points) would be quite a blow and might put you down for a while and possibly kill you. It would not however represent your total um.. let's say vitality.

Hope that made some sort of sense...

Matt

 

[Wormwood]

To sum it up using DnD for simulationist gaming is like using your stereo system to toast bread - you can almost do it but you will end up with sucky toast and will end up hating your stereo for it.

That's not just .sig worthy---it's tattoo worthy.

 

[Andor]

If I wanted real simulationist gaming, I would play GURPs or some other system.

I'm simply trying to find a way to look at the healing rules in D&D from the stand point of establishing the minimum amount of simulation that will allow me to view the characters as people and not merely miniatures that I have chosen to name for some reason.

If I can't relate to the experience of the characters at all I'm not role playing. I'm not sure what I am doing, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather just play DDM and forget the pretense of role playing.

That having been said, I'm not at all sure that it's all that big a stretch really. Sure a Katana will chop a naked guy in half, but any sort of real armour will turn the average sword blow from a hideous gash into a nasty bruise. HP as bruises and scrapes I can live with.