My take on it all. (A Rant of sorts, feel free to ignore)

[BEAN THE CAT]

But if, for some reason, you want to stat an angry drow baker with a rolling pin, you can certainly do so... I would suggest using a "Human Rabble" as base, and add darkvision.

But what about a drow Manicurist or Hairstylist...because that works better....Bakers make pies, and "evil" gothy types surely can not apprciate pie

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

But what about a drow Manicurist or Hairstylist...because that works better....Bakers make pies, and "evil" gothy types surely can not apprciate pie

Dunno, replace the rolling pin with a hairbrush with a sharp handle?

...or maybe all drow carry books of poetry that substitute for bludgeoning weapon (and all of them are trained in its use!)

Seriously Bean, I once freaked out my players by having all the hanging carcasses on a slaughterhouse come to life and attack the pcs... They were actually regular ghouls and ghasts with different shapes.

 

[timbannock]

In previous editions of D&D, the game was generic enough to let the GM decide.

I think that 3E was close to being "generic" enough, but I can't remember finding previous editions to be the same. In fact, I found them quite the opposite.

Perhaps I'm misremembering...?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Bakers make pies, and "evil" gothy types surely can not apprciate pie

"Evil hates pie." - Master Panda.


Seriously, though, I hear where you're coming from. 3e did move monsters towards being more PC-like. Having levels, having many abilities, having stats, for that matter, 1E monsters didn't have STR or DEX or CON (all that was just 'part of' thier dam/att, AC & hps) and had INT given in small ranges.

The cool thing about making monsters PC-like is that they follow the same rules as PCs (so you have a more unified system), and they're more customizeable - I suppose, there's also a gain in versimilitude, since it implies monsters having background and experiences of thier own, too.

The uncool thing is that they take longer to stat out, are more effort to run in combat, and occassionally either fold like paper tigers, or kick the holy crap out of the party when they shouldn't.

In 1E, generally, monsters had lower AC than PCs, poorer saves, hit a little better than most PCs, didn't do all that much damage (no STR bonus or magic weapons), and didn't have all that many hps (no CON bonus). The Heros are supposed to win, so that's as it should be. Of course, in 1E, monsters also had bizarre arbitrary abilities that just killed you character out of hand, or were subject to wild swings of interprestation.

In 3E, monsters generally were bigger than PCs, much better at grappling, hit more, did more damage, had lower ACs and more hps. But, they were supposed to challenge a whole party of thier 'level.' Bascially, all 3E monsters were like 4e Solos. A single monster of your level was a challenge, a group of them was brutal. (Two things many DMs never seemed to figure out, BTW: Improved Grab carried a -20 penalty, and it's OK to throw groups of 'lower level' monsters at your PCs instead of one big one.)

In 4E, AFAICT from my first readthrough of the monster manual, monsters have lower AC & Defenses than PCs, more hps (brutes, elites and solos have a /lot/ more), more at will powers, fewer encounter or daily powers, and the wierd/arbitrary powers now tend to just annoy you until you make your coint-toss save. I'm not sure how that's really supposed to work. Just looking at the stats, it seems like even a basic challenge is going to force a party to burn through all thier enocounter & daily powers, second winds, healing words, and what not, while they slowly wade through it's enourmous bag of hps. The exceptions being minions that pop like baloons on any successfull attacks.

I can imagine a DM engineering some fairly cinematic fight scenes from that. The PCs are attacked by a band of orcs, they quickly cut down some of them (minions) with style and flair, then settle in to a drawn-out 'dramatic' battle with the non-faceless leaders and elites, in which the heros get beaten down, only to rally, well, heroiocally, at the last minute and defeat thier foes. Works great on film. It seems obvious that's what 4e is going for, but I've never seen D&D actually pull that sort of thing off before. The game has really more definied it's own fantasy sub-genre and feel (ripped off by many other RPGs and MMOs) than simulated any existing ones.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

Seriously Bean, I once freaked out my players by having all the hanging carcasses on a slaughterhouse come to life and attack the pcs... They were actually regular ghouls and ghasts with different shapes

I get what you are saying, and that actually is a pretty neat (but gruesome trick).

But my point remains. It is pretty clear that the goal of the 4E MM is provide monsters for 1-30th and Drow were assigned one of the 11th-15th slots.

Personally I would have like a little more of a variety for each "Humanoid race", and certainly a bit more detailed "Fluff".

But then I like setting whole campaigns around a "theme" race some times (in D&D and other RPG's), not just a half dozen level "Jaunt".

As a result, IMO the book lacks the utility of previous MM's,it looks easier then #E I suppose, but still not nearly as easy as 1E.....

I think that 3E was close to being "generic" enough, but I can't remember finding previous editions to be the same. In fact, I found them quite the opposite.

Perhaps I'm misremembering...?

I think so, take a look at the old 1st Ed. books, there may have been a reference to G.G's "Greyhawk", here or there., but beyond that it was as generic as a brown paper bag. No setting info any where, in the core books.

 

[ryryguy]

But what if I don't want to use that setting . What if in my world "Drow" are emasculated fascist wussies with a chip on their shoulder, what if their whole Warrior par excellence mystique is just propaganda ?

In previous editions of D&D, the game was generic enough to let the GM decide.

As I recall "Drow" as they were stated in 1st-3rd are on par with other "humanoids" (i.e. A 1+ HD monster in AD&D), and there were exceptions made for more advanced members of a given race (3rd took it to extremes). Now we are told "why they are all exceptional, its a society of veritable ubermensch."

So it seems like your specific complaint is about humanoids.

In 3e, the majority of creatures are nonhumanoids with relatively fixed Challenge Rating. Sure, you could advance them or add class levels in some cases to increase CR (with somewhat uncertain results). But the minimum CR was fixed. So if you had in mind a campaign involving beholders and you wanted the PCs fighting beholders from 1st level, you'd pretty much have to create your own CR 1 "beholder light" monster from scratch.

Even with regard to humanoids, there was a little bit of variation in minimum CR. Drow have a +1 CR on top of their class levels, right? So even if you're talking about an encounter with 1st level Drow, just one on his own is a second level encounter. A more realistic encounter with a group of 4 1st level drow would be a level six encounter.

I don't actually have the 4e MM to check - what is the encounter level of their sample drow encounter with the level 11 versions? Level 11 or 12? The 3e level 6 encounter is not that far from level 11 on the 4e scale: 6/20 = 0.3 vs 11/30 = 0.36.

Even so, it does seem that maybe drow did get kicked up a notch in 4e (and maybe some of my numbers are off). And I think you do have a point in that 4e jettisoning the "build monsters just like players" philosophy also required them to jettison the "level 0" humanoid "template". For your specific goal - drow that are a lower level challenge - the old humanoid template would have been an easy way to achieve that, and it's no longer available.

On the other hand, the new way of building monsters is advertised as being far easier and quicker to create custom monsters. (I have yet to get my hands dirty with it so I can't say if it's true, just that's what people are saying.) So, if that is correct, it shouldn't be that hard to create lower level drow to meet your specific needs, using the new ways of doing things.

 

[Keltheos]

...or maybe all drow carry books of poetry that substitute for bludgeoning weapon (and all of them are trained in its use!)

Poetry in general is a pretty devestating bludgeon.

"OH NOES! He's attacking me with Free Verse!!"

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

So it seems like your specific complaint is about humanoids.

Well, I tend to focus on Human(oid) races in RPG's, they are more interesting to me. It's easier to give a Human(oid) more complicated motives/mistaken agendas then it is a "monster"- I amnot saying it can't be done, just that it is probably a bit more of a stretch, getting players to care what the (fill in blank)'s reason is, when they can pretty much just kill it and be done with it....

In 3e, the majority of creatures are nonhumanoids with relatively fixed Challenge Rating.

Not that I am a huge 3E fan, but that has never been a real problem, beasties are far less interesting to me.....human(oids) are far more convoluted and fun.

Again monsters can be fun, but I find my players relate to human(oids) better, and are less likely to sit down and hold an impromptu therapy session with a misguided (fill in intelligent non-humanoid)....

Sure, you could advance them or add class levels in some cases to increase CR (with somewhat uncertain results).

I never paid much attention to CR's with my brief stint with 3E. The whole premise was a misguided joke as far as I recall......

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

The cool thing about making monsters PC-like is that they follow the same rules as PCs (so you have a more unified system), and they're more customizeable - I suppose, there's also a gain in versimilitude, since it implies monsters having background and experiences of thier own, too.

Right. That in and off it's self was the best part of 3E (okay maybe not THE best part, but it was a high point).

And it was a lot off work. And 4E seems just on the cusp of making it easier....

I have yet to find the time to find out how hard leveling and De-leveling Monsters is......if it is a *snap* I'll be a happy camper....

 

[Pbartender]

...why do some not have "Minion" class templates, etc.....

Drow don't have minions... they have slaves.