My take on it all. (A Rant of sorts, feel free to ignore)

[Ourph]

Why are some "humanoinds" so damn powerful (Kuoa Toa and Drow start out w/min levels of 11+????, why because they live under ground)...
<snip>
Suppose I want to start the PC's off fighting Drow? It was a snap in the previous editions....now I gotta figure outr what LOW LEVEL drow are....I assume there is such a thing.......or do the pop outta the womb as little bad assed little Drizzel-et clones?. In the previous editions this was certainly easoier to do...

If you played 1st edition this shouldn't be too much of a shock to the system. In 1e, there's no way your 1st level PCs are fighting Drow or Kuo Toa straight out of the monster manual (unless you want a TPK).

 

[Pbartender]

The uncool thing is that they take longer to stat out, are more effort to run in combat, and occassionally either fold like paper tigers, or kick the holy crap out of the party when they shouldn't.

Also, the fact that with enough levels, one NPC of a specific class tended to look much like another, as class abilities begin to overshadow racial abilities. Except for appearances, there is really only a small functional difference between, say, a 10th level orc Barbarian and a 10th level Hobgoblin Barbarian.

 

[Skywalker]

Oh, I agree. I think the basic lay out is great. Again it's just my own feeling, that a "Basic Stat Block in addition to Applied Templates" would have gone miles toward making my game (if I were to run one) even easier...

The DMG includes how to build a monster from scratch. It is quite easy to do. As such, this can be used as a basic stat block.

However, it is even easier to adjust monsters by changing its level, adding templates or upgrading it to Elite/Solo status. As such, that's where the focus is.

 

[Skywalker]

I have yet to find the time to find out how hard leveling and De-leveling Monsters is......if it is a *snap* I'll be a happy camper....

Its a snap.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

If you played 1st edition this shouldn't be too much of a shock to the system. In 1e, there's no way your 1st level PCs are fighting Drow or Kuo Toa straight out of the monster manual (unless you want a TPK).

I am not sure that is entirely true. But then again, if I ever knew I am not now sure what TPK refers to.

1e put no restriction on where and when PC's would/ could encounter Drow.


With the exception of the 1E MM, which mentioned them in passing....there was VoD I suppose, but I never actually used that module....it wasnt like it was require to play.

 

[The Little Raven]

I am not sure that is entirely true. But then again, if I ever new I am not now sure what TPK refers to.

1e put no restriction on where and when PC's would/ could encounter Drow.

1. TPK = Total Party Kill

2. A 1st-level party encountering drow, as written in the 1e MM, would be overmatched severely. Just like going against a Pit Fiend, as written in the 1e MM, would kill them even quicker. Monsters have always been designed for particular levels of characters, and to use them outside of that particular level range required design effort on the DM's part.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Drow weren't really in the 1e MM - they were mentioned along with grey elves (somethig about "dark as faeries are light" and "weak fighters, but strong magic-users" IIRC) - but no stats. They appeared in a module, then the MM2, I believe. They were freakishly overpowered as a race, because they were - as they are in 4e - meant to be higher level challenges (since, again, they apeared in a high level module - Vault of the Drow or Queen of the Demonweb Pits or soemthing).

3e 'fixed' that, and a lot of other logical oddities, by making them a race with levels, instead of a super-race even before levels.

But, it's not like monsters were formally designed to challenge a specific level in 1e or even 2e, that was a 3e concept, CR, and a very helpful one. The 4e equivalent isn't quite as clear to me, so far, but hopefully it works a little better. (CR/EL was really a little dicey at times).

AFAICT, adjusting a monster for a different level is closer to building a new monster than modifying an existing one - but builing a new one looks pretty easy. Pick role, pick level, decide if it's standard, elite or solo, and the relevant numbers are laid out for you. Come up with abilities and tweak for flavor & feel. Sounds easier than advancing or adding levels to a 3e monster.

 

[TimeOut]

But, it's not like monsters were formally designed to challenge a specific level in 1e or even 2e, that was a 3e concept, CR, and a very helpful one. The 4e equivalent isn't quite as clear to me, so far, but hopefully it works a little better. (CR/EL was really a little dicey at times).

It is actually easier in my opinion. But you should not compare it to the CR/EL system, that is a mental roadblock.

The new system can be summed up like that:
1. Your party is 5th level

2. You want an appropriate encounter for that level

3. You look at the "xp per encounter per level" table in the DMG. That value is the amount of "cash" you should spend on that encounter

4. You "buy" any monsters, npcs, traps and hazards you want for your encounter. The "cost" is equal to the xp reward that this feature gives.

5. Profit (??? omitted for unknown reasons, oh noes!)

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

Drow weren't really in the 1e MM - they were mentioned along with grey elves (somethig about "dark as faeries are light" and "weak fighters, but strong magic-users" IIRC) - but no stats.

Precisely, Mourn is recalling some source I had little, to nothing to do with. Prehaps the MMII?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Drow were statted in the 1e Fiend Folio, pg. 33. They were Level "II and up". "Drow males are all at least 2nd level fighters -- some are as high as 7th level in fighting ability. Males can also be magic-users, some as high as 12th level. .." I think a single 2nd level drow fighter would not cause a TPK of a 1st-level party.