I have played some Mystic Theurges in my time and find Craft Wondrous and Extend Spell to be very nice. The buff-up potential for a theurge at higher level is pretty impressive. Assuming it won't be disruptive to the game (both in and out), you can buff the day before and then teleport to your destination.
Mystic Theurge build, plz help
- Thread starter Ipissimus
- Start date
Divine Gestures and No Familiar are exactly the thing that the designing new flaws sidebar in Unearthed Arcana says is absolutely disallowed for flaws. double check them with your DM.
Death is not a domain you want, it's ability is weak and highly dependent on cleric level, and its spells are neither must haves nor unavailable to you otherwise.
Practiced spellcaster is a good feat
Channeling Positive energy is better especially if you are the group's only healer, or if you will be unable to command undead. You will be your groups only healer. You will be unable to command undead.
Death is not a domain you want, it's ability is weak and highly dependent on cleric level, and its spells are neither must haves nor unavailable to you otherwise.
Practiced spellcaster is a good feat
Channeling Positive energy is better especially if you are the group's only healer, or if you will be unable to command undead. You will be your groups only healer. You will be unable to command undead.
Wow... christmas sneaks up on me and I totally miss a buncha posts, sorry guys. Anyway, onward and upward!
Moritheil: Good idea, pity about the errata on the WOTC boards.
Seis: Thanks for that clarification.
Neifin: -nods- good ideas, I've still got some unplanned slots at higher level which I've been playing around with metamagic feats... I've considered item creation feats but that hit you take on EXP just leaves me cold.
NilesB: Our rule is 'All Official Sources' are available and stuff from 3rd party suppliments only on approval from the DM. Dragon Magazine has this big stamp on it saying 100% Official... aside from that, if you look back at the history of DnD, breaking or bending the rules is practically the only way to create cool characters, and the official sources break their own rules all the time. Check the section on Creating Your Own Prestiege Classes in the DMG to see what I mean.
Personally, I like these flaws. What if you don't want a familiar? What if you don't want to play an armoured cleric? It seems apocryphal, they're both the main draw cards of each class. But familiars are annoying and have a distinct lack of survivability, i'd much rather not have one and gaining a mere one feat in return seems to be measily compared to the benefit of putting up with it. Divine Gestures means that i can't really wear armour and effectively closes off what benefits I could accrue by taking Geomancer at some point in the progression (unless I 'buy it back using the retraining rules in the PHBII).
Death Domain is a domain I want because I need it to get into True Necromancer at 16th level. In fact, the only reason I can see anyone wanting to play a Mystic Theurge is so that they can go True Necromancer after and thus not having their caster level raped at the high end. Epic Mystic Theurge is a crock, I mean why waste the paper it's printed on if it doesn't give 2 casting levels each side, when you can take Archmage/Divine Desciple just as easy? Sorry end rant.
Practiced Spellcaster is a VERY good feat.
I agree that channeling positive energy is better, but again, if I want to go True Necromancer, I have to be able to rebuke undead. Darn it. This is one reason I was very grateful to have AL point out the Spontaneous Healing feat, it'll minimize the number of spell slots i'll have to devote to healing and gets better as I buff wis... aside from that, it seems like every bad guy these days has a couple of potions of cure-whatever-wounds, the party might just have to actually use some this time around...
Quartz: Divine Gestures does put a bit of a kibosh on that idea, and I really don't want to play an armoured spellcaster, however I have considered Silent and Sill spell at the higher levels. I love both feats, and will work particularly well with the Domination Domain MUAH-HA-HA-HA! -cough, choke-
Krafen: Hmmm... I haven't given these feats much of a look, I will have to do so post haste and then post back here with all haste.
Moritheil: Good idea, pity about the errata on the WOTC boards.
Seis: Thanks for that clarification.
Neifin: -nods- good ideas, I've still got some unplanned slots at higher level which I've been playing around with metamagic feats... I've considered item creation feats but that hit you take on EXP just leaves me cold.
NilesB: Our rule is 'All Official Sources' are available and stuff from 3rd party suppliments only on approval from the DM. Dragon Magazine has this big stamp on it saying 100% Official... aside from that, if you look back at the history of DnD, breaking or bending the rules is practically the only way to create cool characters, and the official sources break their own rules all the time. Check the section on Creating Your Own Prestiege Classes in the DMG to see what I mean.
Personally, I like these flaws. What if you don't want a familiar? What if you don't want to play an armoured cleric? It seems apocryphal, they're both the main draw cards of each class. But familiars are annoying and have a distinct lack of survivability, i'd much rather not have one and gaining a mere one feat in return seems to be measily compared to the benefit of putting up with it. Divine Gestures means that i can't really wear armour and effectively closes off what benefits I could accrue by taking Geomancer at some point in the progression (unless I 'buy it back using the retraining rules in the PHBII).
Death Domain is a domain I want because I need it to get into True Necromancer at 16th level. In fact, the only reason I can see anyone wanting to play a Mystic Theurge is so that they can go True Necromancer after and thus not having their caster level raped at the high end. Epic Mystic Theurge is a crock, I mean why waste the paper it's printed on if it doesn't give 2 casting levels each side, when you can take Archmage/Divine Desciple just as easy? Sorry end rant.
Practiced Spellcaster is a VERY good feat.
I agree that channeling positive energy is better, but again, if I want to go True Necromancer, I have to be able to rebuke undead. Darn it. This is one reason I was very grateful to have AL point out the Spontaneous Healing feat, it'll minimize the number of spell slots i'll have to devote to healing and gets better as I buff wis... aside from that, it seems like every bad guy these days has a couple of potions of cure-whatever-wounds, the party might just have to actually use some this time around...
Quartz: Divine Gestures does put a bit of a kibosh on that idea, and I really don't want to play an armoured spellcaster, however I have considered Silent and Sill spell at the higher levels. I love both feats, and will work particularly well with the Domination Domain MUAH-HA-HA-HA! -cough, choke-
Krafen: Hmmm... I haven't given these feats much of a look, I will have to do so post haste and then post back here with all haste.
If you are going to take True Necromancer take it first when the spell-likes will still be relevant.
Human Wizard 3/Cloistered Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14
Or
Dwarf Wizard 2/Cleric 3/Runesmith (RoS) 1/True Necromancer 14
If the game goes Epic think about Mystic Theurge then.
Human Wizard 3/Cloistered Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14
Or
Dwarf Wizard 2/Cleric 3/Runesmith (RoS) 1/True Necromancer 14
If the game goes Epic think about Mystic Theurge then.
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Paradigm
First Post
I recently played a Mystic Thuerge dedicated to Wee Jass in a campaign, so I have some experience.
Your turn/rebuke doesn't work after a few levels of MyT. My recommendation would be to use your turning attempts to power Divine Metamatic and combine it with the Extra Turning feat and magic items that add turning attempts. Especially Heighten Spell, as Globe of Invulnerability will be a big handicap.
Spectral Hand is your friend.
True Necromancer is fine, because you aren't taking it until late, and by the time you are 'losing' spellcaster levels of any meaning, you will be far into epic and plenty powerful. That said, EN Publishing has a Mystic Thuerge book with a Heirophant Thuerge character, you may want to get it (it is only $5) and run it past the DM.
Spontaneous Healer.
Triad Spell once you are high enough, your versatility will explode.
Your turn/rebuke doesn't work after a few levels of MyT. My recommendation would be to use your turning attempts to power Divine Metamatic and combine it with the Extra Turning feat and magic items that add turning attempts. Especially Heighten Spell, as Globe of Invulnerability will be a big handicap.
Spectral Hand is your friend.
True Necromancer is fine, because you aren't taking it until late, and by the time you are 'losing' spellcaster levels of any meaning, you will be far into epic and plenty powerful. That said, EN Publishing has a Mystic Thuerge book with a Heirophant Thuerge character, you may want to get it (it is only $5) and run it past the DM.
Spontaneous Healer.
Triad Spell once you are high enough, your versatility will explode.
NilesB: I did consider that option but the key to my build was caster levels over special abilities. In fact, the spell-like abilities of the True Necromancer are crud, so they didn't even factor into my equasions. As stated in many, many places before, True Necromancer is a terrible class. If you look at the caster level breakdown, going TN first doesn't give you 9th level spells by 20th level, which kills you for getting Epic Spellcaster at 21st. Plus, counting Practiced Spellcaster, you drop one caster level much earlier in the build when it particularly counts towards Spell Resistance checks.
Haniball: Yes, the True Necromancer, as a class, is terrible. I think the unofficial guide to necromancy on the DnD forums overstates the case, but they do have a few good points there. The special abilities are entirely useless (you get them all as a cleric anyway), why bother? However, when you couple the duel caster progression with the duel caster progression of the Mystic Theurge, you get something truely interesting as long as you're not actually hung up on becoming a real necromancer.
That is: 29 levels of both Cleric and Wizard casting ability over 30 levels.
That's what I want, it's what I'm aiming for in the build, and there is no other way to get it to my knowledge (and boy, have I looked).
Paradigm: Coolness! Voice of experience warmly welcome.
I know that turn/rebuke will go down the pit, I'm honestly fine with that. Divine Metamagic is an excellent idea, but not so useful when I don't have any metamagic feats to use it with. Good point on Globe of Invulnerability, I'll have to think about that one. Heighten Spell isn't generally on my list of desireable feat choices for spellcasters, considering that there are often better choices you and make for higher level spell slots, but you have a good point.
Spectral Hand to deliver all those Inflict spells? -chuckle- good idea. Though I wonder if it is the most efficient method of dealing damage once you have access to wizard spells.
Eh, i'd like to see that book and may indeed snap it up for my own edification, but my DM for this character is leery of 3rd party books.
Spontaneous Healer is definitely a must.
Triad spell I'll have to look up.
I had a look at the reserve feats from Complete Mage. Interesting concept, but I can't help feeling that there are better feat choices that I could make for the build. 9d6 points of damage a round seems a little pultry once you get to 16th level and start hurling about meteors and warping reality to your every whim.
Haniball: Yes, the True Necromancer, as a class, is terrible. I think the unofficial guide to necromancy on the DnD forums overstates the case, but they do have a few good points there. The special abilities are entirely useless (you get them all as a cleric anyway), why bother? However, when you couple the duel caster progression with the duel caster progression of the Mystic Theurge, you get something truely interesting as long as you're not actually hung up on becoming a real necromancer.
That is: 29 levels of both Cleric and Wizard casting ability over 30 levels.
That's what I want, it's what I'm aiming for in the build, and there is no other way to get it to my knowledge (and boy, have I looked).
Paradigm: Coolness! Voice of experience warmly welcome.
I know that turn/rebuke will go down the pit, I'm honestly fine with that. Divine Metamagic is an excellent idea, but not so useful when I don't have any metamagic feats to use it with. Good point on Globe of Invulnerability, I'll have to think about that one. Heighten Spell isn't generally on my list of desireable feat choices for spellcasters, considering that there are often better choices you and make for higher level spell slots, but you have a good point.
Spectral Hand to deliver all those Inflict spells? -chuckle- good idea. Though I wonder if it is the most efficient method of dealing damage once you have access to wizard spells.
Eh, i'd like to see that book and may indeed snap it up for my own edification, but my DM for this character is leery of 3rd party books.
Spontaneous Healer is definitely a must.
Triad spell I'll have to look up.
I had a look at the reserve feats from Complete Mage. Interesting concept, but I can't help feeling that there are better feat choices that I could make for the build. 9d6 points of damage a round seems a little pultry once you get to 16th level and start hurling about meteors and warping reality to your every whim.
Well, here's the build as it stands. Feat selections are still fluid, but they were what i was thinking about at the time of writing a few weeks back.
Cl.Cl=Cloistered Cleric
Wiz=Wizard
MT=Mystic Theurge
TN=True Necromancer
CL=Character level
CL(E)=Caster Level (Effective Caster Level for Caster level checks, duration, etc.)
CL Class CL(E) BAB Saves(F/R/W) HD Skill Pts.
1 Cl.Cl 1 C1 (1) +0 +2/+0/+2 d6 (6+Int)x4
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Blackmoorian Rhymes, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Special: Knowledge, domination and death domains, lore, rebuke undead
Flaws: Divine gestures, no familiar
2 Cl.Cl 1/Wiz 1 C1/W1 (2) +0 +2/+0/+4 d4 2+Int
Feats: Scribe scroll
3 Cl.Cl 2/Wiz 1 C2/W1 (3) +1 +3/+0/+5 d6 6+Int
Feats: True Believer
4 Cl.Cl 2/Wiz 2 C2/W2 (4) +2 +3/+0/+8 d4 2+Int
5 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 2 C3/W2 (5) +2 +3/+1/+8 d6 6+Int
6 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3 C3/W3 (6) +2 +5/+2/+8 d4 2+Int
Feats: Spontaneous Healing
7 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 C4/W4 (7) +2 +4/+2/+10 d4 2+Int
8 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 2 C5/W5 (8) +3 +4/+2/+11 d4 2+Int
9 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 3 C6/W6 (9) +3 +5/+3/+11 d4 2+int
Feats: Initiate of Wee Jas
10 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 4 C7/W7 (10) +4 +5/+3/+12 d4 2+Int
11 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 5 C8/W8 (11) +4 +5/+3/+12 d4 2+Int
12 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 6 C9/W9 (12) +5 +6/+4/+13 d4 2+Int
Feat: Silent Spell
13 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 7 C10/W10 (13) +5 +6/+4/+13 d4 2+Int
14 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 8 C11/W11 (14) +6 +6/+4/+14 d4 2+Int
15 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 9 C12/W12 (15) +6 +7/+5/+14 d4 2+int
Feat: Still Spell or Spell Penetration
16 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10 C13/W13 (16) +7 +7/+5/+15 d4 2+Int
17 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 1 C13/W14 (17) +7 +7/+5/+17 d6 2+Int
Special: Rebuke undead
18 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 2 C14/W14 (18) +8 +7/+5/+18 d6 2+Int
Feat: Quicken Spell
Special: Create undead
19 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 3 C15/W15 (19) +8 +8/+6/+18 d6 2+Int
Special: Necromantic prowess
20 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 4 C16/W16 (20) +9 +8/+6/+19 d6 2+Int Special: Zone of desecration
21 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 5 C17/W17 (21) +10 +8/+6/+19 d6 2+Int
Feat: Epic Spellcasting
22 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 6 C17/W18 (21/22) +10 +9/+7/+20 d6 2+Int
Special: Necromantic prowess +2
23 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 7 C18/W18 (22) +11 +9/+7/+20 d6 2+Int
Special: Major desecration
24 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 8 C19/W19 (23) +11 +10/+8/+21 d6 2+int
Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
Special: Create greater undead
25 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 9 C20/W20 (24) +12 +10/+8/+21 d6 2+int
Special: Necromantic prowess
26 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 10 C21/W21 (25) +12 +11/+9/+22 d6 2+Int
Special: Horrid wilting
27 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 11 C22/W22 (26) +13 +11/+9/+22 d6 2+Int
Feat: Divine Spell Power
28 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 12 C23/W23 (27) +13 +12/+10/+23 d6 2+int
Special: Necromantic prowess
29 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 13 C24/W24 (28) +14 +12/+10/+23 d6 2+int
Special: Energy drain
30 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 14 C25/W25 (29) +14 +13/+11/+24 d6 2+Int Feat: Divine Metamagic
Special: Wail of the banshee
Cl.Cl=Cloistered Cleric
Wiz=Wizard
MT=Mystic Theurge
TN=True Necromancer
CL=Character level
CL(E)=Caster Level (Effective Caster Level for Caster level checks, duration, etc.)
CL Class CL(E) BAB Saves(F/R/W) HD Skill Pts.
1 Cl.Cl 1 C1 (1) +0 +2/+0/+2 d6 (6+Int)x4
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Blackmoorian Rhymes, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Special: Knowledge, domination and death domains, lore, rebuke undead
Flaws: Divine gestures, no familiar
2 Cl.Cl 1/Wiz 1 C1/W1 (2) +0 +2/+0/+4 d4 2+Int
Feats: Scribe scroll
3 Cl.Cl 2/Wiz 1 C2/W1 (3) +1 +3/+0/+5 d6 6+Int
Feats: True Believer
4 Cl.Cl 2/Wiz 2 C2/W2 (4) +2 +3/+0/+8 d4 2+Int
5 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 2 C3/W2 (5) +2 +3/+1/+8 d6 6+Int
6 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3 C3/W3 (6) +2 +5/+2/+8 d4 2+Int
Feats: Spontaneous Healing
7 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 1 C4/W4 (7) +2 +4/+2/+10 d4 2+Int
8 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 2 C5/W5 (8) +3 +4/+2/+11 d4 2+Int
9 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 3 C6/W6 (9) +3 +5/+3/+11 d4 2+int
Feats: Initiate of Wee Jas
10 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 4 C7/W7 (10) +4 +5/+3/+12 d4 2+Int
11 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 5 C8/W8 (11) +4 +5/+3/+12 d4 2+Int
12 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 6 C9/W9 (12) +5 +6/+4/+13 d4 2+Int
Feat: Silent Spell
13 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 7 C10/W10 (13) +5 +6/+4/+13 d4 2+Int
14 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 8 C11/W11 (14) +6 +6/+4/+14 d4 2+Int
15 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 9 C12/W12 (15) +6 +7/+5/+14 d4 2+int
Feat: Still Spell or Spell Penetration
16 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10 C13/W13 (16) +7 +7/+5/+15 d4 2+Int
17 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 1 C13/W14 (17) +7 +7/+5/+17 d6 2+Int
Special: Rebuke undead
18 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 2 C14/W14 (18) +8 +7/+5/+18 d6 2+Int
Feat: Quicken Spell
Special: Create undead
19 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 3 C15/W15 (19) +8 +8/+6/+18 d6 2+Int
Special: Necromantic prowess
20 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 4 C16/W16 (20) +9 +8/+6/+19 d6 2+Int Special: Zone of desecration
21 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 5 C17/W17 (21) +10 +8/+6/+19 d6 2+Int
Feat: Epic Spellcasting
22 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 6 C17/W18 (21/22) +10 +9/+7/+20 d6 2+Int
Special: Necromantic prowess +2
23 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 7 C18/W18 (22) +11 +9/+7/+20 d6 2+Int
Special: Major desecration
24 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 8 C19/W19 (23) +11 +10/+8/+21 d6 2+int
Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
Special: Create greater undead
25 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 9 C20/W20 (24) +12 +10/+8/+21 d6 2+int
Special: Necromantic prowess
26 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 10 C21/W21 (25) +12 +11/+9/+22 d6 2+Int
Special: Horrid wilting
27 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 11 C22/W22 (26) +13 +11/+9/+22 d6 2+Int
Feat: Divine Spell Power
28 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 12 C23/W23 (27) +13 +12/+10/+23 d6 2+int
Special: Necromantic prowess
29 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 13 C24/W24 (28) +14 +12/+10/+23 d6 2+int
Special: Energy drain
30 Cl.Cl 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/TN 14 C25/W25 (29) +14 +13/+11/+24 d6 2+Int Feat: Divine Metamagic
Special: Wail of the banshee
