Mystic Theurge build, plz help

[Ipissimus]

Note that BAB suffers at first but catches up later, but who cares when you have access to the cleric buff spells? Will saves are off the charts. The caster level noted in brackets includes the bonus from Practiced Spellcaster, which has no effect on spell slots/day.

Big weakness is not getting 9th level spells until 20th, 4 levels late. But i'm willing to take that hit for twice the number of spells/day of every other spell level.

 

[Quartz]

Your BAB doesn't look quite right: you use the Epic progression at Epic levels - +1 to you Epic Attack Bonus every other level. So your BAB never exceeds +9. This affects iterative attacks.

 

[Quartz]

For extra cheese, how about adding two levels of Monk? You'll get cool abilities, most importantly Evasion and the Wis bonus to AC. Or at L25 you could stop advancing in True Necromancer (because you're now 20th level in both Divine and Arcane) and switch to Duellist, allowing you to get your Int bonus to AC.

 

[Vuron]

I can't really tell if the builder is using the Epic ruleset or some homemade one.

 

[Jack Simth]

in reality the only reason I'm going True Necromancer is that it's the only really viable choice after Mystic Theurge unless I want to completely drop one class.

Then you might consider:

Wizard-3/Druid-3/Mystic Theurge-10/Arcane Heirophant-10/Bard-1/Fochlucan Lyrist-10 (you don't want to do Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant as linearly as it's spelled out - you only need two levels of Mystic Theurge to get your BAB up enough for Arcane Heirophant and it's got class features the Mystic Theurge lacks).

At 20th, you cast as a Druid-17 and a Wizard-17
At 23rd, you cast as a Druid-20 and a Wizard-20. This is an important step, as after 20th, you only get more caster level and spells in your book, not more spell slots from your classes. Practiced Spellcaster twice (once for Druid, Once for Wizard) means you effectively cast as a Druid-23/Wizard-23. But we'll ignore that for this analysis.
At 26th, you cast as a Druid-23 and a Wizard-23.
At 27th, you also cast as a Bard-1 (who cares?) - but it qualifies you for Fochlucan Lyrist, if you've been spending skill ranks cross-class enough. Alternately, you could soak a level of Virtuoso here, to the same purpose (if you can use the 3.0 version, great, it progresses your Wizard side; otherwise, meh).
At 28th to 38th, you cast exactly four caster levels behind your ECL on each side. Four caster levels is exactly what Practiced Spellcaster fixes.

Oh, and you may want to keep the familiar until 23rd - because of the Familiar Companion ability from Arcane Heirophant. Natural Bond and Obtain Familiar (it is not redundant - it makes your Familiar's abilities depend on your caster level, not your class level; combined with The Familiar Companion class feature of the Arcane Heirophant, it keeps the beasty viable for a long, long time... and the Familiar Companion class feature gets rid of the disadvantages of using your familiar).

 

[NilesB]

As stated in many, many places before, True Necromancer is a terrible class. If you look at the caster level breakdown, going TN first doesn't give you 9th level spells by 20th level,

Going True Necromancer after Mystic Theurge doesn't give you 9th level spellcasting by 20th. True Necromancer is an awful class because first two levels only give +1 arcane casting and +1 divine casting between them, after that it's strictly better than Mystic Theurge. There is no way to get 9th level casting by 20th with more than one level of True Necromancer. As none of your earlier builds had 9th level casting at 20 I assumed it was not a priority for you.

A build that gets ninth level spells by 20:
Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Geomancer 4

Advance Geomancer in epic play.

 

[Ipissimus]

Someone asked to have a look at the build, so I supplied. I should have known better.

Quartz: Read it again. I double checked it, +1 attack bonus starts at 21st level. Epic Level Handbook, pg.6. And Monk levels would just be dead weight to my spellcasting, you NEED those caster levels for the SR of high-level monsters, besides, I can get all the same abilities by wearing a Monk's Belt.

Vuron: -shrugs- I'm too lazy to code tables.

Jack Smith: Yessss, I could do that. But there's a big problem with the build... it gives you druid spellcasting levels rather than Cleric. Now, I like Druids as Driuds, you get a ton of cool special abilities but you pay for those by having a terrible selection of spells, half of which aren't useful in 90% of the situations you're likely to face. eg Call Lightning. Oh, not to mention that the other 10% of the spells are only good if you have animal companions and such that I don't want to have to deal with. Besides, if I wanted to play a Druid/Wizard, I'd have created one.

And I hate familiars. I don't care what they do for me, they are an utter waste of time IMO. 40% of the time they're dead weight, 40% you won't think about using them and the 20% of the time anyone actually remembers they're there and are useful, they die. At least, that's been my experience in the past.

NilesB: Well, I'll be blown, I've gone on thinking you got 9th level spells at 16th! Ah well, could happen to anyone. That said, I'll be a poor soul and just have to wait until 21st level for my 9th level spells... I'm devastated (yes, my 'voice' is dripping with sarcasm). And I still get Epic Spellcasting at the same time, AND my caster level doesn't actually suffer until 22-23rd level, YIPPIE!

And, uh, I don't know how you get up to 9th level spells with that build. The Geomancer I'm looking at in Complete Divine right now gives you only ONE spellcasting level every level, which makes your 20 level build a 15/15 caster... two levels shy, dude.

Um, and, by the way, I've never posted a build to this forum, or indeed any forum, ever before. This is my first one. I don't know who you think I am but... I'm not them, sorry.

Geomancer, however, I do agree is an excellent choice for Theurgic spellcasters... as long as you're willing to take that hit on caster level... which I just might be when I hit 30th level since my only other choice is alternating Archmage/Divine Disciple anyway!

Hate for the True Necromancer I can understand. We've been begging for a proper Necromancer class for three point five editions now and they've failed to deliver time and time again... however, there's such a thing as going too far. This build works, better yet it works for me. It's a little tooled up without being pure cheddar, it's nicely thematic, it ties in with campaign background, etc. And it gives me both cleric and wizard spells while still being relatively effective at the high end.


I have to say it's ironic that my longest rants here aren't about my actual question about feat choices. Really guys, giving me pet alternate builds of your own is not helping. Perhaps we can get back on track, please? Thanks to all those who have answered my question so far, I really do appreciate it and you have been a tremendous help.

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

Someone asked to have a look at the build, so I supplied. I should have known better.

Quartz: Read it again. I double checked it, +1 attack bonus starts at 21st level. Epic Level Handbook, pg.6.

No, Quartz is correct. BAB does not increase after 20th level. Every other level after 20, characters gain a +1 epic bonus to attack rolls. I don't have the ELH on hand, however.

Edit: here's a link: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021004ct

The issue of BAB after 20th level is discussed is discussed. However, this is for a 3.0 product.

 

[NilesB]

NilesB: Well, I'll be blown, I've gone on thinking you got 9th level spells at 16th! Ah well, could happen to anyone. That said, I'll be a poor soul and just have to wait until 21st level for my 9th level spells... I'm devastated (yes, my 'voice' is dripping with sarcasm). And I still get Epic Spellcasting at the same time, AND my caster level doesn't actually suffer until 22-23rd level, YIPPIE!

The only significant difference between your TN build and mine at 20th level is that my build has 3 more points of Necromantic Prowess, can control undead that might conceivably be worth the effort and would be allowed by the large number of DMs that disallow mixing dual progression classes.

And, uh, I don't know how you get up to 9th level spells with that build. The Geomancer I'm looking at in Complete Divine right now gives you only ONE spellcasting level every level, which makes your 20 level build a 15/15 caster... two levels shy, dude.

My build Has 17th/13th level casting. Why would you split up casting advancement unnecessarily until you hit the top of the spells per day chart?

 

[Votan]

Why not take a cleric with the Divine Magician class feature from Complete Mage? You get to take a series of Arcane spells (including any and all Necromancy spells plus abjuration and Divination) in place on one domain. What is really cool is that these spells do not have limited uses like normal domain spells.

You get the better hit points and armor of a cleric. If you make your single domain Travel then you have a very nice Necromancer that is very simple to assemble.

Even cooler, you still keep open the options for other prestige classes . . .