Mystic Theurge Questions

[ruleslawyer]

Drow Clr3/Wiz3/MyT10/Yathrinshee9 would be a fun epic build.

That'd be 9th level spells for both cleric and wizard by 25th level. 19th level caster for both (unless you use a couple applications of practiced spellcaster to bump it to 23/23), and caster level 38 for necromancy spells.

Of course, Practiced Spellcaster is purpose-built to overcome multiclassers' main weakness, and for that reason, IMHO, should NOT be allowed in conjunction with the MT.

If you don't use Practiced Spellcaster, this character is in BIG trouble if it tries to use any offensive spells (except maze). Average SR at this level is 37, meaning that even with Epic Spell Penetration, this character blows offensive non-necromancy spells 60% of the time. Worse still, the character's main specialization is easily offset by a simple death ward protection, which is available to practically everyone (at the princely cost of 56k gp) at this level.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

What Prestige class gives 2nd level Divine spells at level one?

My bad... strike my comment wrt dragons from the record

They get spell-like and spells as arcane casters - clericals as arcane casters as well.

So three levels of cleric to a dragon would work, but that spoils the whole point - so just scratch that.

 

[Jeremy]

Of course, Practiced Spellcaster is purpose-built to overcome multiclassers' main weakness, and for that reason, IMHO, should NOT be allowed in conjunction with the MT.

So since it's purpose built for multiclassed spellcasters, the multiclassed mystic theurge shouldn't take it?

If you don't use Practiced Spellcaster, this character is in BIG trouble if it tries to use any offensive spells (except maze). Average SR at this level is 37, meaning that even with Epic Spell Penetration, this character blows offensive non-necromancy spells 60% of the time.

Any 25th level character is going to have trouble with SR 37. And with practiced caster, which IMO looks like it is built for Mystic Theurge's is taken by the example character, he's only 2 away from a full caster who doesn't have 9th level spells of both types.

Worse still, the character's main specialization is easily offset by a simple death ward protection, which is available to practically everyone (at the princely cost of 56k gp) at this level.

Which is true about all necromancers, not just this one. But then a Cowl of Warding builds in Mind Blank for almost total immunity to the entire school of Enchantment, Freedom of Movement for immunity to a huge number of spells and even grapples, and spell turning that is autocast for anything that slips through... Tack on Deathward too and you can ban a third of all spells.

And have you seen what the 3.5 rod of absorption makes you immune to?

Or just cast an antimagic field.

Sure there's ways to nerf that or any other build. But it's a decent Theurge build all the same. In my opinion...

 

[ruleslawyer]

So since it's purpose built for multiclassed spellcasters, the multiclassed mystic theurge shouldn't take it?

Ah. You may have misinterpreted me. I meant that you're looking at two fixes for multiclassed spellcasting: The MT, and Practiced Spellcaster. It is my opinion that providing both options and allowing them to be used together was overkill on WotC's part, and leads to a rules abuse that I, personally, would not allow. From a rational decisionmaker's point of view, it's practically the ONLY option!

Any 25th level character is going to have trouble with SR 37.

Well, not really. A Wiz20/Acm5 with spell power +2 and Greater Spell Penetration beats SR 37 on a nice, easy 6. Plus he has more spare feats with which to throw multiple spells and thus get multiple chances to beat SR in a round. And that's hardly an optimized SR-beater at these levels.

Which is true about all necromancers, not just this one. But then a Cowl of Warding builds in Mind Blank for almost total immunity to the entire school of Enchantment, Freedom of Movement for immunity to a huge number of spells and even grapples, and spell turning that is autocast for anything that slips through... Tack on Deathward too and you can ban a third of all spells.

Yeah, I know. It's annoying. My point was really that while a caster level of 38 for necromancy spells looks like a powergaming miracle, it's not as good as it might seem (which is not to say it ain't pretty darn good!) because it's narrowly restricted. A Wiz5/Red15/Acm5 will have a CL of 32 + spell power for her specialized spells, but suffers from the same restriction. However, she'll also have a CL of 25 for her non-necromancy spells, which is competitive at epic levels.

And I do think this is a decent theurge build. I must say, though, that Practiced Spellcaster + theurge will just not be allowed in my campaigns. It's not that I think it's overpowered, but I do think it rather silly that the benefits of these two multiclassing "patches" should stack.

 

[Thanee]

"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell"

Why, in your opinion, does this line from the SRD not allow spell like abilities to function as casting the spell?

Because a spell-like ability is neither a spell, nor cast. Both is required by the prerequisite.

It only functions like a spell, it is no spell.

To qualify, you need actual spellcasting ability, not something, which is only similar.

Note also that dragons cast all inherent spells as spell like abilities... I wouldn't really want to tell the dragon 'doesn't work that way'

Not according to the core rules. The MM quite clearly distinguishes between spellcasting and spell-like abilities of dragons. I guess Draconomicon has made them spell-like abilities (?), if so mostly for the reason to do away with components.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jeremy]

My point was really that while a caster level of 38 for necromancy spells looks like a powergaming miracle, it's not as good as it might seem (which is not to say it ain't pretty darn good!)

Ah. I did misunderstand. My bad.

As the player of a circle casting mage who's enhanced caster level for dispel checks and SR checks is incredibly useful, I could stare at that 38 and see that as an impressive feat too. But in reality, it is just a minor bonus. The major benefit is being able to cast Miracle, Shapechange, Meteor Swarm, or Gate as either arcane or divine, which ever would be most advantageous. And to be able to do it at only two caster levels less.

I suppose if you wanted to focus against spell resistance, you could do so. But there will always be something that even someone focused on defeating SR will be useless against. Much better to just use spells that do not allow SR, which as a double caster gives you that much more flexibility to find it.

Even if it won't fly in your games. It is an interesting theory that probably won't ever see play as there is a stunning lack of evil drow wizard/priests of the goddess of undeath and vengeance of the drow among the heroes and PC's of the forgotten realms.

Though I can't imagine why...

 

[mercucio]

Funny you should say that... that's what I said first time I saw it too... then the player gave me this:




I was flabbergasted at the time. Now I'm on a quest to analyze -everything- that gets granted spells. For example, certain dragons need only take a single level of some PrC's to qualify as a MT... I'm thinking villains here, but still...

Hmm, well it seems to have chopped a bit of the qoute, BUT, anyways: A spell-like ability IS NOT the same as the ability cast spells. Otherwise they would be called spells =). Just because they behave like spells does not allow them to grant access to PrCs that require the ability to cast spells of X level. If this were the case the PrC would state something like: "The ability to cast spells of x level, or the ability to use spell-like abilities of X level".

Also note that spell-like abilities are not specifically arcane or divine, and many (if not all) PrC's require you to cast arcane or divine spells of X level.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Hmm, well it seems to have chopped a bit of the qoute, BUT, anyways: A spell-like ability IS NOT the same as the ability cast spells. Otherwise they would be called spells =). Just because they behave like spells does not allow them to grant access to PrCs that require the ability to cast spells of X level. If this were the case the PrC would state something like: "The ability to cast spells of x level, or the ability to use spell-like abilities of X level".

Also note that spell-like abilities are not specifically arcane or divine, and many (if not all) PrC's require you to cast arcane or divine spells of X level.

Yet MT says arcane and divine spells of X level

Yet Drow (in FRCS) specifically states these are 'arcane', and are 'cast' as a sorc of your character level.

And in answer to Thanee:

Because a spell-like ability is neither a spell, nor cast. Both is required by the prerequisite.

It only functions like a spell, it is no spell.

Not quite. The rules state, quite clearly (as I posted above from the SRD) in the SRD (and in the DMG, i believe?) that the sp-like abilities are indeed CAST.

They require one standard action and in all respects function just like the spell. The only difference is, they are activated by a mental energy, and thus do not require components. Where in the rules do PrC's clearly indicate the manner in which the spells of level x are cast?


I'm familiar with these 'common sense' arguements you've provided. I've used them and had them countered. I don't care to arbitrary and say 'no' because this is a relatively inventive idea on the part of the player.


The net benefit is to gain MT one level early. So far, the only problem I see with it is you can't add +1 spellcasting class to your Drow levels , which pushes it back up to 6th level, as per normal for anyone (a single level of Sor + 2 Drow + 3 cleric = 6), which is the only effective, logical, counter I've found to the arguement.

 

[Thanee]

It's completely ok for you to allow it. I just don't think it is, officially.

Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

The FRCS drow entry says (which the general spell-like ability description also does), that the spell-like abilities, which resemble actual spells, are as the spells cast by a sorcerer. They are... they are not cast (the spells are cast, which they get compared to, because they work pretty much the same).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

That's what I needed - they are *NOT* spells at all

Thanks Thanee!