Mystic Theurge too good or not?

[Li Shenron]

I guess many of us have taken a look at the preview of this new DMG prestige class on the WotC website. Now, does anybody else than me think it is just too good as an option for a Wizard or Sorcerer?

You must be a multiclassed arcane/divine spellcaster, but you need only 3 levels of Cleric or Druid plus 3 levels of Wizard or 4 levels of Sorcerer to qualify.

The main - and only - benefit is that your spellcasting abilities (spells known, spells per day, caster level...) increase in BOTH classes.

All other features are the worst possible: d4, 2 sp/level, 1 good ST, bad BAB.

Essentially, it makes sense to take this PrCl if you are a Wizard or Sorcerer (so you lose only Familiar improvements and the Wiz's bonus feats): you lose 3 precious levels of arcane spellcasting, because you need to have 3 levels of Cleric/Druid, but then you have the spellcasting abilities of a Cle or Dru of the same level.

Example: you go for the Wiz/Cle route, and qualify at 6th (Wiz3/Cle3). At level 10th you already have spellcasting abilities of a Wiz7/Cle7, and for the rest you are still better than a Wiz10 for BAB, Hp and saves, and you have other benefits from the 3 levels of Cle. The drawback is that a normal Wiz10 would be 1.5 levels of spells beyond you, which is of course not good for you.

Obviously, it would still make sense to be plain Wizard to avoid the 3-level delay, but with this PrCl you can look forward to be a 20th level character who casts 9th level Wizard spells AND 9th level Cleric spells!

note: maybe it is not too good itself, but it is far a better option than any possible ECL+3 race I have even seen

 

[Pax]

I guess many of us have taken a look at the preview of this new DMG prestige class on the WotC website. Now, does anybody else than me think it is just too good as an option for a Wizard or Sorcerer?

Abolutely not. I like the concept, actually.

Example: you go for the Wiz/Cle route, and qualify at 6th (Wiz3/Cle3). At level 10th you already have spellcasting abilities of a Wiz7/Cle7, and for the rest you are still better than a Wiz10 for BAB, Hp and saves, and you have other benefits from the 3 levels of Cle. The drawback is that a normal Wiz10 would be 1.5 levels of spells beyond you, which is of course not good for you.

And you're 3 points behind in terms of penetrating SR, or for Dispel Magic rolls, on both types of spells.

Also consider that such a characetr has TWO attributes they want to improve "as much as possible" -- Wisdom and either Intelligence of Charisma.

Obviously, it would still make sense to be plain Wizard to avoid the 3-level delay, but with this PrCl you can look forward to be a 20th level character who casts 9th level Wizard spells AND 9th level Cleric spells!

Not quite. A Wiz(5)/Cleric(5)/Theurge(10) only casts spells as a 15th level Wizard and a 15th level Cleric; you only have 8th level spells of each type.

A Wizard(7)/Cleric(3)/Theurge(10) can cast 9th level wizard spells (as a 17th level wizard), but only 7th level Cleric spells (as a 13th level cleric).

There is NO way for a 20th level caster, with levels of Theurge, to cast both cleric and wizard spells of 9th level. Either, or, or neither.

note: maybe it is not too good itself, but it is far a better option than any possible ECL+3 race I have even seen

*shrug* It fits a concept. IMO, priests of Boccob (GH) or Mystra, Aziuth, and company (FR) would be prime candidates for this PrC.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Mystic Theurge too good or not?

Not quite. A Wiz(5)/Cleric(5)/Theurge(10) only casts spells as a 15th level Wizard and a 15th level Cleric; you only have 8th level spells of each type.

You are right, I just forgot you can't go epic in a PrCl before character level 21st.

 

[Pax]

And, Li, I read -- somewhere or other -- an advisory that after Theurge(10), the spellcasting progression "won't be what you might expect".

It might be that a Theurge(11)+ doesn't gain spells-per-day at AL, though both classes still gain caster levels for other purposes.

Still, a Cleric(10)/Wizard(10)/Mystic Theurge(10) would be like a Wizard(20)/Cleric(20), but only be ECL 30.

Overall, a Mystic Theurge saves you 10 character levels, but costs that many from the non-spellcasting benefits of EACH of your two classes.

IOW, take a Cleric(10)/Wizard(10)/Theurge(10); they only get familiars as if they were Wizard(10), and they only turn undead (and use Domain powers) as a Cleric(10).

Sure, they get 20 levels of spellcasting for each of the classes, but like I said, the Theurge levels are only saving 10 character levels anyway, overall.

...

And it might even be true that the Theurge goes back to a "+1 spellcaster level, pick a class this applies to" model, like normal spellcasting PrCs. Or there might not really BE an Epic Progression (nore a need for one), but instead, a new EPrC (like Spellfire Channeler vs Spellfire Heirophant, right now).

We won't know until WotC tells us (probably in the form of a a Web Enhancement to ELH or DMG3/5 or both ...).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Mystic Theurge too good or not?

There is NO way for a 20th level caster, with levels of Theurge, to cast both cleric and wizard spells of 9th level. Either, or, or neither.

The problem is that the first 3.5 Spellcaster splatbook to come out is almost guaranteed to have another +1/+1 PrC. Different Prereqs, some different drawbacks and advantages... but the details won't matter.

A Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10/XX4 will cast 9/9 spells.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge too good or not?

The problem is that the first 3.5 Spellcaster splatbook to come out is almost guaranteed to have another +1/+1 PrC. Different Prereqs, some different drawbacks and advantages... but the details won't matter.

A Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10/XX4 will cast 9/9 spells.

-Hyp.

Right. And I think even more or at least the same number of spells of each level than a single class caster (in two classes, but still).

 

[Li Shenron]

And, Li, I read -- somewhere or other -- an advisory that after Theurge(10), the spellcasting progression "won't be what you might expect".

It might be that a Theurge(11)+ doesn't gain spells-per-day at AL, though both classes still gain caster levels for other purposes.

I hope not, it would mean that the Mystic Theurge is a specific exception to the "normal" rules for epic advancing of a PrCl beyond level 10th. I can expect that if you are e.g. Wiz5/Cle5/The10, which means you are virtually Wiz15/Cle15 for spells only, you should still advance to Wiz5/Cle5/The15 i.e. virtually Wiz20/Cle20 and THEN the following levels of Mystic Theurge won't grant you more spells/day because Wiz and Cle spells progression ends at 20th*. But if you must stop the spellcasting progression at virtual 15th, that would require a specific rule on Mystic Theurge, which would not then use the same baserules from ELH. Or am I wrong?

*you'll still get +1 caster level on both classes

 

[Simulacrum]

I think the MT is just lame and unimaginative. Thats the worst thing about it. Why trying to bring 2e mistakes over to 3e?
Where is the darn logic behind that?
after all its not necessarily broken, but all in all it doesnt do good either. Its just ugly on the side.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

maybe it is not too good itself, but it is far a better option than any possible ECL+3 race I have even seen

This is not true. Half-fiends, Half-dragons, Half-celestials, Deep Gnomes and drow all give better than dual-spell casting. I have played all these races and they are better than the MT by virtue of their innate abilities.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re

This is not true. Half-fiends, Half-dragons, Half-celestials, Deep Gnomes and drow all give better than dual-spell casting. I have played all these races and they are better than the MT by virtue of their innate abilities.

I haven't played any of them yet, but I was planning to play a Drow Wizard, and everyone discouraged me to do so exactly because of the +2 ECL. If instead of the Drow bonuses (basically SR and Darkvision), I could cast Cleric spells as a Cleric of the SAME level, for the only cost of 1 Wizard level less, and also have 3 levels worth of Cleric BAB, save, HD and domains, well I think it is much better. Perhaps it is not better than a straight Wizard, but I still think it's worth trying.