Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge too good or not?
Chun-tzu said:
Not only that, compare a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 (at the height of its power) to a Wizard 6/Red Wizard 10 (also soon to become a core PrC). The Theurge falls behind another FIVE points in spell power (save DCs and penetrating SR). The Mystic Theurge is considerably LESS powerful than the Red Wizard, but considerably more _versatile_.
Don't forget about losing out on 10 levels of Prestige Class power.
Better than the above.
Wizard(5)/Red Wizard(8)/Archmage(3).
Total Spellpower +10 (the Archmage's Spellpwoer
currently states it specifically stacks with ANY spellpower bonus form ANY source). Which means, SR penetration checks are 1d20+26 for this fellow ... or 1d20+13 for the Wiz(3)/Cler(3)/Theurge(10).
Originally posted by mmu1:
I happen to think that having a mess of 4th, 5th and 6th level clerical spells (including domain spells, and domain abilities) is worth much more than losing a couple of 9th level wizard spells, but a lot of people seem to disagree.
A Cleric(13) is
not going to have "a mess" of 4th to 6th level spells, especially not with a Wisdom of only 16.
Base (not counting domains) spells per day for a Cleric(13) would be 6/5/5/4/4/3/2/1. Bonus spells for Wis(16) are -/1/1/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
So, total divine spellcasting for a Wisdom 16 Wizard(7)/Cleric(3)/Theurge(10) will be 6/6/6/5/4/3/2/1, plus domain spells of 1st through 7th level ... except, of course, the 7th level spells are LOST, due to insufficient Wisdom. Oops.
Anyway, including domain spells ... 3x6th, 4x5th, and 5x4th level spells ... I would not characterise as "a mess of spells", at 20th character level.
As for domain powers: the Theurge PrC doesn't stack with Cleric levels for that purpose, so, you'll only have Domain Powers based on a third level cleric.
As well, Turn/Rebuke undead will be based on a Cleric(3).
OTOH, looked at as a Wizard with clerical spellcasting "strapped on", consider: how many wizards put their second-best stat in Wisdom, normally?
None.
They put it in Dex (for ranged attacks, AC, and initiative), or in Constitution (for HP).
The Theurge doesn't; they need it in Wisdom. That means the average theurge will be either easier to hit/slower/less-accurate at range than a standard Wizard, or, will have lower HP/lower Fortitude saves than the standard wizard.
Of course, the same holds true for characters that focus more on their divine casting than their arcane casting.
...and it's absurd that any class allows such a thing, especially with Spell Pentration and Greater Spell Penetration around. It's like saying some Archer PrC is underpowered because of what you can do with an OOtBI / Peerless Archer combo.
Do I detect someone who hasn't looked at the COSTS associated with beign a Red Wizard?
Methinks I
do ... !
For starters, you
have to be a Specialist Wizard. Sorceror, bard, generalist mage -- all need not apply.
Why, you ask? BEcause of one single prerequisite:
Tattoo Focus. Which, in turn, requires you to be specialised in a school of magic to get it.
Further, you have to be HUMAN (not elf, not half-fiend, not anything but pure human),
and be a native of Thay. Along, of course, with the usual "cast spells of X level" and "spellcraft Y ranks" requirements one expects from a spellcasting PrC.
Now, once you gain your first level of the class, you gethit with an
additional cost -- "Enhanced Specialisation" (which doesn't give you any enhanced BENEFITS, only increased COSTS. Namely, you have to choose opposition schools all over again ...
in addition to the choices you made at 1st level!).
For that, you get a bonus to saves vs your specialty school, and you get spellpower which applies ONLY to spells of your specialty school; a few bones are tossed in for good measure: Circle Leader / Great Circle Leader, which are only useful if there are multiple Thayan wizards in the party -- meaning, the vast majority ofPCs won't be
able to benefit from them ... the ability to let otherpeople pick the Tattoo Focus feat, if they meet the prerequisites ... and one bonus feat, at 5th level.
So, I fail to see why people think the Red Wizard is so overpowered. It costs a lot to get the benefits, and yes, youc an make good use of them.
But then, to do so on a frequent basis, you have to be a somewhat one-dimensional wizard; the benefits ONLY work with regards to yoru specialty school of magic.
For example, I have a character n an epic Arena game, Dhao. He's a Red Wizard (among other things), designed primarily to carve through SR like a hot knie through warm butter.
And I admit, I cheesed out and got EVERY form of spellpower that could POSSIBLY apply (it is an ARENA game, after all), so this can be seen as a "worst case" scenario.
His classes are: Specialist Wizard(5)/Archmage(3)/Red Wizard(10)/Shadow Adept(7); he is specialised in Enchantment (I like the
Nybor's spell chain, and since it's a Red Wizard-originated set of spells, it seemed kinda thematically appropriate).
Overall, he gets +14 spell power, and a couple similar-effect boosts from feats as well -- but he has TWICE as many Opposed Schools as a normal Enchanter. for starters. And far fewer metamagic feats than if he'd stayed pure Wizard.
So, he's great at punching through SR with Enchantments, and his save DCs for them are quite high (0-level is DC 39 ...).
But as I said -- he's quite one-dimensional, which has it's own costs. For example, if the enemy is undead,
Dhao runs the @#$& away!![/i]
And he doesn't always win, either. So far, he's 1-1.
