Mystic Theurgist [Feat]

Technik4

First Post
Well theres a lot of hubb-ub about the new mystic theurge prc, so I'll assume you know what Im talking about (its the newest prc destined for 3.5, and you can preview it at wizards.com).

Some peoples' problem with the class are that it addresses a problem (3.0e multiclassed spellcasters) but the fix is so narrow (limited combinations + it is a prc) that it really serves to point out the faults in multiclassing in general.

Hence, my idea is a feat to emulate a prc. How can I do this you ask? Does this destroy/negate/invalidate the new prc? Kind-of.

Mystic Theurgist [Feat]
You blend different magic styles together fluidly.
Prerequisites: Spellcasting Ability of Level 1 or higher in 2 different spell-casting classes.
Benefit: The next time you would gain a spell-casting level, you gain an additional +1 spellcasting level in another spell-casting class which you already have level(s) in. You dont gain any other special abilities of the spellcasting class except increased spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Example: A drd2/rgr4 takes this feat as her 6th level feat, and for her 7th level chooses to advance as a ranger. She has access to 2nd level druid spells and her caster level becomes 3 for druid spells.

Arcane Theurgery [Feat]
You blend similair arcane magic easily.
Prerequisites: Arcane Spellcasting Ability of Level 1 or higher in 2 different arcane spell-casting classes.
Benefit: Your caster level for arcane spells stacks with any valid arcane spellcasting levels you have.
Special: This feat may only be taken once.
Example: A sorc10/wiz10 who has this feat has a caster level of 20 for any spell he casts.

Divine Theurgery [Feat]
You blend similar divine magic easily.
Prerequisites: Divine Spellcasting Ability of Level 1 or higher in 2 different divine spell-casting classes.
Benefit: Your caster level for divine spells stacks with any valid divine spellcasting levels you have.
Special: This feat may only be taken once.
Example: A pal4/clr3 who has this feat has a caster level of 5 for any spell she casts.

Greater Theurgery [Feat]
You blend arcane and divine magic easily.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5+, Spellcasting Ability of Level 1 or higher in 2 different spell-casting classes.
Benefit: All your caster levels stack with each other, but your maximum caster level is always 20 (non-epic feat).
Example: A rgr4/drd3/sor4 with this feat has a caster level of 9 for any spell he casts.


Ok. so how do the 3.0e multiclassers fare with these feats?

Clr10/Wiz10 as a non-human has access to a total of 9 feats (2 of which are metamagic/item creations from the wizard class). She spends 1 feat on Greater Theurgery, so her caster level stacks, and she spends 3 more on the Mystic Theurgist feat. This means that she is considered to be a 20th level caster when casting any spells, and she has access to 7th level cleric and 7th level wizard spells.

She also has 2 more feats which could be used for anything, and 2 which must be metamagic or item creation. Lets say she is really craving power, she spends both feats on the Mystic Theurgist feat. Her caster level is still 20, but she has access to 8th level cleric and wizard spells. She has 2 bonus wizard feats left over, which she will undoubtedly spend on Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, as she is a power craver. She still has 1 feat left over (her 1st level feat, which cannot be used on theurgery feats).

Even if she was human she wouldnt be able to get 9th level spells in both classes (as you dont meet the pre-req at level 1). Is this balanced? While the character has quite a bit of power, she sacraficed almost all of her feats in order to get it. Even if she hadnt chosen Greater Theurgery (which isnt really a necessity if you plan on taking many levels of Mystic Theurgist, but is probably more useful during early levels) she would only be able to get a few more 8th level spells.

What about his combination?

wiz17/clr3

Well, we start with the same number of feats (7). Even spending the 6 he can, this wizard will only make it to 5th level cleric spells. That leaves a 1st level feat and 3 wizard bonus feats left over.

Now, we essentially have a defined version of the mystic theurge's prc ability, but quantifying in terms of something the character receives 1 in 3 levels (feats) instead of every level (levels) makes it both a limiting factor and a more difficult decision.

The mystic theurgist would read as it does on the wizards webpage, but instead of gaining dual-spellcasting, she would gain 1 level of spellcasting in her choice of arcane or divine spellcasting, and the Mystic Theurgist feat. There would also be 2 "dry levels" (levels in which you did not gain anything in the prc) at levels 4 and 8. Additionally, I would make the feat Mystic Theurgist a prerequisite for taking levels in the class.

Granted, I only just thought of this system, but to the best of my memory it hasnt been attempted before.

Technik

Edited for clarity.
 
Last edited:

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Only one feat is sufficient, by the way. I would make it as such:

Mysticism [General]
You continue to learn a kind of magic while practicing other studies.
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 1+.
Benefits: You gain +1 spellcasting level in a spellcasting class you have. This gives you additional spell known and spell slots, but no other abilities.
You can't gain this additional spellcaster level in a class you gain a level in when taking this feat, since you are already studying it if you gain a real level.
For example, a fighter 1/wizard 1 could take this feat at level 3, when gaining an additional level of figther, but not if he took a level of wizard. Or a cleric/sorcerer could gain +1 spellcasting level as a sorcerer while leveling in cleric.
Special: This feat may be taken several times. Its effect stacks.
 

Broken Combos?

Wiz1 Mysticism
Ftr1 (+1 spellcaster level) bonus fighter feat
Wiz2 Mysticism
Ftr2 (+1 spellcaster level) bonus fighter feat
Wiz3
Wiz4 Mysticism
Ftr3 (+1 spellcaster level)
Wiz5 bonus wizard feat
Wiz6 Mysticism
Ftr4 (+1 spellcaster level) bonus fighter feat

BAB: +7/+2 (equal to 2/3 progression), spellcasting as 10th level wizard, avg 12 hp higher, full martial and simple weapon prof, full armor prof light, med, and heavy, 3 bonus fighter feats, 1 bonus wizard feat.

Wiz1
...
Wiz10

BAB: +5, spellcasting as 10th level wizard, 2 bonus wizard feats, 4 character feats unused


I like the wording on your feat, I just think its too powerful, especially with regard to non-spellcasters. All of my feats are only useful in spell-caster/spell-caster matchups.

Technik
 

Since when is it on the fighter bonus feat list ? It could be taken at best at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 & 18.

Broken combo: Spellcaster 1/Something else 19, with a caster level of 7, at the expense of all regular feats. Don't think that would be too much over the top, actually.
 

IMO, if you can replace an entire PrC with a single feat, there's something wrong...

Benefit: The next time you would gain a spell-casting level, you gain an additional +1 spellcasting level in another spell-casting class of your choice. You dont gain any other special abilities of the spellcasting class except increased spells per day, caster level, spells known, and spell penetration.

This should be changed to read: "you gain an additional +1 level in another spellcasting class in which you already have a level." As written, someone will interpret this to mean that you could gain levels in ANY spellcasting class, whether or not you already have levels in it, which I seriously doubt was your intent.

These feats need more prereqs, like a minimum caster level or (at the least) minimum ability scores. Being able to combine magic like this is something that only the smarter/wiser/more powerful casters should be able to do, not just Joe Blow the mage.

For Greater Theurgy, why is there no prerequisite beyond having 1 level in a divine and arcane spellcasting class? It's Greater, which implies that it requires the "lesser" version as a prereq, which this does not. Following my earlier vein of thought:

Arcane/Divine Theurgy: Prereqs: caster level 1st+, Int/Wis/Cha 13+.
Greater Theurgy: Prereqs: Arcane or Divine Theurgy, caster level 5th+, Int/Wis/Cha 15+.

I don't really know about combining levels like that, though - a Sor 10/Wiz 10 (which, IMO, shouldn't be possible) gains more than twice the number of spells per day (remember, sorcies get more spells per day than wizards), with a caster level double that of either class. Seems to me that's a bit much, since you're effectively making a sorcerer/wizard MT with all the abilities AND the spellcasting. This is even more evident when you combine a cleric and a druid - an unholy powerful combo if I've ever seen one. Suddenly you have a character with the clerical armor, weapons, and turning, the druid's nature abilities, and the spells of both, with the combined spellcasting level of both. That's just scary.
 

Spells for feats

Kerrick:

Essentially your 1 feat is buying 1 level of spellcasting. In my version, the spellcasting can only be used on pre-existing spellcasting levels (although I do need to clean up the text, thanks for pointing it out).

While I replaced an entire prc with a single feat, the single feat must be taken multiple times to have effect. The formula is actually weaker as a feat, as characters have fewer feats on the path to level 20 than they do "levels" to gain.

The mystic theurge is being criticized for having too LITTLE power at low levels, and too MUCH power at higher levels. Therefore, the pre-reqs should, imo, be very low.

As for Greater Theurgery, perhaps it is to powerful at lower levels, but one thing to consider is that your caster level as a dual-spellcaster always lags behind that of a single-classed caster. In addition, you dont get spells of higher levels. For the price of one feat, you catch up to single-classed spellcasters, however most of us are wondering why this isnt built into multiclassing already, so making it a feat you can take early on doesnt seem to broken.

As for sor10/wiz10, as posted, they are using a ton of feats to get a caster level of 20 (free for single classed sorc or wiz) and up to 7th or 8th (if they use all their feats) spellcasting. Perhaps the cost should be such that they can't get 8th level dual spellcasting, thats what I'm mulling over. Either way, they NEVER get access to 9th spells in either progression, which is something the myt can give.



Gez:

The ftr/wiz was taking Mysticism on his character level feats, I merely put the fighter bonus feats to show that he isnt giving up too terribly much, as feats spent on Mysticism on 1st,3rd,6th,9th level feats are replaced by fighter feats on 2nd,4th,10th levels.

This is going under the assumption that a first level wizard could take your feat, as a first level fighter could take weapon focus (your requirement states Spellcasting Level 1+, Weapon Focus states BAB 1+).

Technik
 

IMO, it shouldn't even have to be a feat. This should be the way that multiclassing spellcasters are handled in the core rules. If a Clr10/Wiz10 casts spells as a 20th-level caster, it would make multiclassing less of a pain. He wouldn't have the higher-level spells, but he has more and more varied lower level spells. Most importantly, his lower level spells are just as effective as that of a "pure" spellcaster.
 


While I replaced an entire prc with a single feat, the single feat must be taken multiple times to have effect.

Ah. See, I thought you could take it once and be good to go. The way it's worded seems to imply that. You ought to state that it can only be used for ONE level, and also include a "Special: This feat can be taken multiple times."

As for sor10/wiz10, as posted, they are using a ton of feats to get a caster level of 20 (free for single classed sorc or wiz) and up to 7th or 8th (if they use all their feats) spellcasting. Perhaps the cost should be such that they can't get 8th level dual spellcasting, thats what I'm mulling over. Either way, they NEVER get access to 9th spells in either progression, which is something the myt can give.

Okay, here's something that's been escaping me. Can someone please tell me where it says that once you hit 20th character level (not class level) you stop gaining spells in all your spellcasting classes? It's not in the core books - I looked. Yes, once you reach 20th CLASS level, you don't gain any more spells; but what about multi-classes? I'm a Clr 10/Wiz 10 - 20th character level, but I've still got ten more levels of each class before I max out my spellcasting ability. The MT CAN grant you hgher-end spellcasting, it just takes a little longer.
 

FireLance said:
IMO, it shouldn't even have to be a feat. This should be the way that multiclassing spellcasters are handled in the core rules. If a Clr10/Wiz10 casts spells as a 20th-level caster, it would make multiclassing less of a pain. He wouldn't have the higher-level spells, but he has more and more varied lower level spells. Most importantly, his lower level spells are just as effective as that of a "pure" spellcaster.

Now that I think about this, I think this is a good idea. Here are my reasons:

1) Low level spells cap at 10th or 15th level anyway so the benefit of 20 levels would not be huge.

2) It mirrors the benefit gained from different BAB and Saves

3) It puts m/c spellcasters more on par with other characters when it comes to using their powers (like overcoming spell resistance).

4) If this were done, I think that it should be set up so that CL increases by 1 per full spellcasting class level (bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, psion), by 1 per 2 half spellcasting class levels (ranger, paladin), and by 1 per 5 non spellcasting levels (fighter, rogue, monk)--chalking this last up to sheer experience.

Just my thoughts.

DC
 

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