Mythic Hybridity in Fantasy

[RangerWickett]

On topic? Doesn't matter; that was cool.

Let's see. In my game, I have Christianity, pretty much transported whole cloth. There were 'Hebrews' (a group of twelve Orc and Human tribes called the Herethim) who traveled, were oppressed, and eventually spread. A human Empire overtook the older Elvish kingdoms (a la Rome conquering . . . everything), and much of the culture was decadent, debauched, depraved, and degenerate. Feeling no need to change names, I had Jesus be Jesus, but he had a few different disciples from the ones on Earth. Then I have my own versions of a Catholic church, but a few magical cataclysms and epic wars made it a little harder for Christianity to get a strong foothold. Christian organized religions never took on the role of trying to conquer and convert the world in anything resembling the Crusades, so I've basically managed to have 'traditional' fantasy polytheism mingling with Judeo-Christian beliefs. It appeals to me, because it's the only religious tradition I'm grounded in, and it's filled with cool symbolism.

Then I take a full left turn and try to wholly invent my Elvish religion, which based around the thought that we can never know everything, and thus you can never know if something is wrong. If there's a need for a new god or godling, someone just thinks it up, and the god will exist. It always existed, but people just never knew about it. Toss in some bizarre 8-pronged delineations of everything (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation; or Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Active, Passive, Life, Death;; or Sword, Bow, Mace, Hand, Whip, Shield, Staff, Axe;; or Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet, Blank), and divide all the various gods and goddesses and semi-deities into those 8 prongs, and I'm set.

 

[barsoomcore]

You know, it's kind of great that my gaming group's in the middle of a long layoff -- a week and a half (long for them, just barely enough for me -- these players are running me ragged!) because suddenly I have some time to actually read through the posts that interest me. And am I ever glad I read through this one.

I wanted to address a couple of comments that reflect very closely one of the things I'm doing in my campaign:

Umbran wrote:
We tend to think of a particular mythology as a single set of static stories. Which, when you pause to consider, is silly.

and:

kenjib wrote:
Things twist and turn and stories get retold over and over again until they seem to take on new lives of their own.

I assume that the myths we know, from the New Testament to Arthur to Gilgamesh, may based on true events. The relationship between the true event and the story we know today is unknowable, however, and so any part of the story may or may not be true. There's no way to determine the historical validity -- and of course, the historical validity is probably the LEAST important part of these tales. People don't remember and pass on stories because they're true, but because they're good stories. Mythic stories.

This holds true in my campaign. The myths and legends that the party comes across are what people like to tell each other happened, and may bear no resemblance to what actually happened. My players may NEVER discover what actually happened, and so they're always encountering disparate versions of stories that just don't add up. Even with crucial decisions, like "Which of these two power-mad psychotic godlike beings do we support against the other?", they just have no way of knowing how to assess what they're told about the world.

It really throws them for a loop when one trusted authority tells them some tale about a legendary figure and then another authority tells them a completely contradictory one. They used to get very cranky, but I think it's really drawn them into the campaign because the moral distinctions they're making are THEIRS, not mine. They're deciding who the bad guys are -- they're creating their own myths.

And I think that's one of the keys to creating great campaigns -- not to come up with brilliant mythic structures, but to give your players the raw materials out which they can fashion their own myths.

fixed a formatting problem

 

[kenjib]

Very insightful barsoomcore. It reminds me of how the general belief was that the Iliad and Oddessey were 100% fictional until an amateur archaeologist used them to find the actual ruins of Troy.

 

[RangerWickett]

I found this thread, and I want to think about it some more soon. Consider this a bump.

 

[ciaran00]

From my reading/writing experience, two things:
1) The (more or less) unchallenged superiority of classical myth (of whatever culture), partially because the classics had less pressure to excel and partially because they had the luxury of having their ideas first.

a) As far as the "less pressure" issue goes, this is evident in every creative field. I can name the great physicists of past decades, but the current ones really do elude me. The same goes for authors (Homer comes more easily than... say... Brett Easton Ellis). We exist, in many ways, in an age of mediocrity, where we are expected to fail. No wonder so many of us give up. Homer had less (or no) Homers to live up to.

b) A giant with a single eye idea is now gone as far as inventing a new idea goes. We can't really call a shadowy figure with a caul and scythe original, even if it were conceived in a vacuum. Are there limits to human creativity? Maybe not, but there is certainly a MASSIVE effect of diminishing returns.

2) People are stupid and uncreative.

a) Guys like Tolkein and Jordan don't have the energy to create an utterly unique concept (the point at which authors fall apart varies, but most often-- unfortunately and tragically-- it shows up). What's worse, unlike the classics, they have no culture to draw from (the one they live in is vastly different from what they're trying to write about). Nonetheless, whereas I think that in entertainment prospects like D&D co-opting of popular myth is fine, the Dante-style plagaristic critique/nonsense is intolerable in literature. That reworking of Arthurian myth concept is flawed because something better (originality) exists and is achievable.

ciaran

 

[Eosin the Red]

I think the introduction to my website might actually be relevant so at risk of being rude I am gonna cross post it:

Introduction
February 3, 2004

The title of this Website comes from an older Welsh book, which translates into ‘tale of a hero’. Interestingly, this smaller book is contained within the Red Book of Hergest – possibly the inspiration for the Red Book of the Westmark referenced in J.R.R. Tolkien’s work. I find that very appropriate.

This publication serves as a guide to gaming in my homebrew world. The campaign is set in the country of Middea and is based off of a fantasized England circa 900-1250 AD.

Part 1: Why another setting?
I have always been somewhat disappointed with published game worlds. A requirement for being in business is that you make money, and the way to achieve that end is to be as inclusionary as possible. Great stories are not about inclusion - most often they are exclusionary. A singular monolithic evil is a keystone of fantasy and science fiction [Examples: Morgoth from J.R.R. Tolkien, The Dark One from Robert Jordan, The Shadows from Babylon 5, The Borg from Star Trek, The Empire from Star Wars]. Heroes frequently battle semingly different villains, only to discover in the end that a thread of darkness connected them. Monolithic evil resembles a hydra more than an arrow.

Many of our enduing villains have been structured in this way; Joseph Campbell even detailed some of the requirements of the perfect villain in his book about myths of Heroes, The Hero of 1,000 faces. One of the things frequently mentioned in the book is the character of the hero's opposition. It should posses a faceless and absorbing quality. Evil should threaten the heroes with not just defeat, but loss of their individuality. I find myself drawn to stories in this vein and others, apparently, feel the same.

Published settings tend to include a plethora of evil, most serving different master villains with their own plan of world conquest. Many settings are wonderful and do exactly what they set out to accomplish but it is not the kind of game I want. I will play in several published settings, but truthfully as a player and Dungeon Master, I want to fight against the Forsaken or the Nazghul.

Keeping these things in mind, I set out to design the "perfect" fantasy world. First, I needed a concept for monolithic evil, the folks mentioned above already took many of the very good ones but other notable evils include: the aliens from Independence Day, The aliens from Aliens, vampires by White Wolf and the bugs from Starship Troopers.

Part 2: Why another setting?
This is a setting bible so to speak, that ensures that the world retains it’s flavor as it grows and becomes more solid. So, what should it include?

Dragons, magic, and fantastic races inhabit this world, but the stories are about people, my players. As the stories unfold, their characters should grow and learn from the events that transpire around them.

As stated earlier, I needed to define the "Great Enemy" of my game world. I decided that the enemy of man would be his own corruption and disease. The enemy is the embodiment of forbidden knowledge and was brought into this world by hubris of the Celestine (semi-divine beings), who have fled rather than face their own folly.

The Enemy:
The era described is the culmination of thousands of years of loss. A race of benevolent titans dwelt in paradise for untold eons. The Celestine are the uncomplicated distillation of human ideals. They more closely resemble comic book characters than humans - everything is exaggerated. Some are beautiful beyond the imagination, while others are the hideous creatures of nightmares. None of them are plain. They posses the power to bend the laws reality, but one law bound them: Never transcend the barriers of death.

Three of those titans were involved in the opening of Pandora’s box.

Vanya, his name means beloved. He was the king, priest, sage, idol, and father of the Celestine until he died. His tragedy is the sorrow of this world.

Dheymos, the second brightest star in the universe, unseen because he stood in the shadow of the brightest. He was part of a binary system seen from a distance, only one light was visible. His envy brought darkness to this paradise. His hand snuffed Vanya’s flame, his hand sought to rekindle it.

Cyrena, wife to Vanya, her soul is as dead as her husband. All that was good in her died with Vanya. Nothing held any value, no price was to high, and no law was unbreakable.

Together, Cyrena and Dheymos broke the one law. They reached across the void and pulled Vanya back from death. What returned to inhabit his body was not quite Vanya; some part of him was dark. It hungered for and fed on life. He was both more and less than he once was. He became Ennwrathi.

The word Ennwrathi means ‘life’s wrath’ in the old tongue. It is the antithesis of life, a malignant intelligence from the dark realm of death, housed in the body of Vanya. From him the essence of the Ennwrathi spread, seeking to sustain itself. The Evil within him is not the world conquering megalomania brand, the Ennwrathi seek to consume life. Like vampires, they posses the ability to turn those who fight against them into inhuman monsters. They posses a faceless terror, once these creatures were like the heroes, and should they fail, the heroes know that their fate is far worse than death. They will become what they sought to destroy. Many cultures call the evil by different names but within the World of the Mabinogin all true evil is drawn from the same well.

Not every story will or should involve the Ennwrathi. Sometimes the least of the Ennwrathi will appear in stories to enhance the flavor. In many stories where we expect to see the evil workings of the Ennwrathi, a human villain will better serve to remind us that the true enemy is still inside of the heroes. It is a part of the nature of being alive.

One last note, this world is as real as I want to make it, meaning that mature themes are often addressed. I don’t drag these issues into the spotlight, but the world and its societies, races, and religions were born out of atrocities. Religious and racial conflicts dominated our history and I would bet that on any world - fantasy or not - differences lead to violence. I have not presented religious, racial, or other intolerances in a positive light – instead they are like taxes, something everyone must deal with.


Now that the formalities are out of the way…

I think the tales that we told in mythic times (pardon the pun) are the same tales we tell today. I have an intentional parable with the Original Sin, and the hope for redemption and a return to Eden within my game world. I never say it that way but it is a purposeful construct. Man STILL wants to know why he must die and what waits for him at the end of the journey.

Man still wants to know why we suffer but continue to strive. The answers we looked for 2,000 years ago still have not been found. The stories of our forefathers try to explain or questions and give us some sense of ....something.... those same stories, those same elements are still relevant. Why is the concept of an enemy who destroys what you are or what your soul is ....more scarey than one that eats you.....Why are the BORG much more evil than an Orc horde? Why are vampires worse than serial killers?

 

[ciaran00]

Dark Sun is much the same, as was, in many cases, Spelljammer.

... and I'm a bigger fan of Dark Sun than anyone on here, but if you look at the Veiled Alliance supplement, you might wretch. Different city states are mocked up as Aztec, Egyptian, Roman, and various other cultures (and written up as such in a variety of other Dark Sun material).

The books might have been different, though I wouldn't know... reading roleplay-fic or anything occupying the same aisle as that Drizzt Forgotten Realms author guy would wreck my self-respect issues.

ciaran

 

[herald]

Not true. It clearly draws on the original Golem myth, which originates in eastern Europe.

Well there was this greek story about a guy called Prometheus that would predate that eastern Europe story.

As a matter of fact wasn't Prometheus Unbound the subtitle of Frankenstein?

 

[Varianor Abroad]

...Forgotten Realms, and many many other fantasy realms like it, take myths from a variety of sources and dash them together, creating a melting pot mythos the likes of which never quite existed on Earth.

I'm wondering why. Is it merely for the sake of variety that so many fantasy stories draw upon diverse elements of our own Earthly myths?

....
So why, in fantasy, do we still see strains of old myths? Are they presented to resonate more with our modern lives, to tie us into the world we cast our minds to as we read or play? Even superhero comics often are their most poignant when they draw upon Christian or Oriental or Jewish or Muslim or other symbolisms. Surely, some authors have a clearer agenda than others, but for those who consciously choose to draw upon real-world myths, what do they think they gain?

I want to end this long question with a bit of a counter-argument. I'm sure there are a thousand other examples, but if any of you have read about or played in Talislanta, you'll know that it owes very little to real-world myths. Dark Sun is much the same, as was, in many cases, Spelljammer. Obviously, fantasy stories can be told without tapping humanity's mythic lore, so then what prompts so many of us to keep doing so?
....

Inspiration derives from the spark of imagination that we see when viewing the familiar in a new light, or reading about the unfamiliar for the first time. What makes our games worthwhile? A fresh look at something.

However, sometimes a fresh view still depends on the hook to the real world. Even in a setting that sets new directions and courses, some familiar echoes to your lives and common myths are needed or Joe Gamer flounders. Take Sky Realms of Jorune. Wonderful setting with a rich mythology. Yet it was very hard to find people who would even look at it because they had to learn and absorb so many new myths.

I think that fantasy gaming worlds involve walking this fine line between the familiar and the unfamiliar. Some groups like the more familiar, and others like the less familiar.

At the core of it all though, I think that well done myth that draws upon the archetypes identified by Campbell succeeds in drawing us in.

This by the way is a great topic! Thanks for percolating this back to the top.

 

[mmadsen]

The Modern Prometheus

As a matter of fact wasn't Prometheus Unbound the subtitle of Frankenstein?

Close. It's Frankenstein or the Modern Prometheus.