Nat 20 rule. Is it immersion breaking?

zztong

Explorer
I've always found it ridiculous that the excuse of "It's magic" lets the Wizard do any crazy physics breaking thing he wants, but the Monk who literally trained so hard

I agree. This is one reason why I prefer low-magic games or even games where wizardry is largely the domain of NPCs. In PF1, we used house rules to limit Wizards. Its much easier to keep them from casting.

You, for instance cite Beowulf and might point to the 2007 movie as an example. I too would cite Beowulf, but I would point to Eaters of the Dead, aka the 13th Warrior.

Alas, the DM of PF2 game I'm in generally likes the ultra-fantastic. He's a good friend. I just have to live with it. My other regular game stayed with PF1 and has all the house rules. At least half the time I get a game I can usually remain immersed.
 

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mewzard

Explorer
Yeah, but looking at it in retrospective, the ending of Kung Fu Hustle was kind of silly, even for Kung Fu Hustle. It was fun to be sure. But the fact that basically a thousand axers weren't even up to the task of making him sweat kind of makes the fight boring aside from the fact that it was simply too comical in nature. If you'd played that out at a table, people would be yawning their arses off by the time he got to the BBEG.

Well, in an actual game, you could not only have a thousand fodder incapable of hurting you, but a few more level appropriate elites that could still cause you some harm, leading to the boss monster and their personal guard that's a major threat to you.

The fodder can show how much you've progressed (maybe it's made up of foes that once wrecked you at lower levels) while also letting you show off (three action Ki Blast at level 20 would do 18d6 damage on a failure for the Fort save in the 60 foot cone, 36d6 on a Critical Failure, which is likely for low level fodder), the higher ups let you warm up, your status/HP depending upon how smart you played it, and then the big fight where you're not entirely sure if you'll make it unless you really go in with a plan.

I agree. This is one reason why I prefer low-magic games or even games where wizardry is largely the domain of NPCs. In PF1, we used house rules to limit Wizards. Its much easier to keep them from casting.

You, for instance cite Beowulf and might point to the 2007 movie as an example. I too would cite Beowulf, but I would point to Eaters of the Dead, aka the 13th Warrior.

Alas, the DM of PF2 game I'm in generally likes the ultra-fantastic. He's a good friend. I just have to live with it. My other regular game stayed with PF1 and has all the house rules. At least half the time I get a game I can usually remain immersed.

It seems we take issue with the same problem (Caster>>>Martial), we just have different solutions to that problem. You like bringing the caster down in a low magic setting, whereas I like bringing the martial up in a high fantasy setting. Each can be a fantastic solution to the problem, the one you choose just depends on the group.

I ended up retraining late game to take Serpent Fire Adept for my Unchained Monk in our PF1 game partially because I felt like it could close that gap (it also fit where my Monk was at the time, finally turning inwards to focus on his spiritual side after ignoring it for too long due to story reasons, so it was a win-win).

I like the idea of the game having options to do Legendary things in default, rather than having to dig for the right (and probably broken) archetype to get that feel.

I'm also rather fond of how much skills matter, and that they're not as negatable by a caster as had been the case in the past.
 
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Kaodi

Hero
The primary way in which a army of 10,000 goblins deals with a level 20 fighter is probably just do anything else other than try and hit him. He can only kill so many goblins per round.
 

mewzard

Explorer
The primary way in which a army of 10,000 goblins deals with a level 20 fighter is probably just do anything else other than try and hit him. He can only kill so many goblins per round.

True, a Fighter's weak save is Will, so if he rolls a natural 1, it counts as a regular success if he still beats the DC by 10 for a partial effect. Or, I suppose, splash damage from 10,000 bomb-tossing foes would overwhelm the character (unless they resist the element in question).
 

Aldarc

Legend
It makes it feel too unrealistic to me. Not that I want ultra realism simulation in my fantasy game but I do have a level of realism I enjoy. In the Hobbit Smaug was nearly indestructible but that one well placed shot brought him down. I don’t mind improbable, I just don’t like to see it be impossible in my heroic story. I guess I never realized how well bonded accuracy fit my style of rpg storytelling.
Sure, but I don't think you will be getting that in D&D either. Bard the Bowman made the shot with a non-magical bow and killed the dragon, despite a longbow only doing crit (1d8 + Dex) x 2 damage against an ancient red dragon that was previously at full HP. Even with bounded accuracy, I don't think D&D is meant to support these sort of stories.
 
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gargoyleking

Adventurer
Screw it, let's even assume old 3.5 bow standards and give him an x3 crit.

I like the movie retelling. That was no arrow and he definitely used a makeshift balista. Still epic, but also some serious silliness.

Sure, but I don't think you will be getting that in D&D either. Bard the Bowman made the shot with a non-magical bow and killed the dragon, despite a longbow only doing crit (1d8 + Dex) x 2 damage against an ancient red dragon that was previously at full HP. Even with bounded accuracy, I don't think D&D is meant to support these sort of stories.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Sure, but I don't think you will be getting that in D&D either. Bard the Bowman made the shot with a non-magical bow and killed the dragon, despite a longbow only doing crit (1d8 + Dex) x 2 damage against an ancient red dragon that was previously at full HP. Even with bounded accuracy, I don't think D&D is meant to support these sort of stories.

I think that depends on how you interpret hit points.

If you consider them "meat points", where HP loss always results in some physical damage, then you are correct.

If, on the other hand, you interpret HP damage as having the potential to be non-physical, then you can have that scene. It's admittedly been decades since I read The Hobbit, but I believe that there were other archers who were firing upon Smaug. If we assume that some of those attacks chipped away at the dragon's HP (luck and other non-physical factors) and Bard simply landed the finishing blow, then the scene works as written.

So I don't think that D&D can't support such stories, but rather that some people's view on how D&D hit points work doesn't mesh well with such stories.
 

Markh3rd

Explorer
Screw it, let's even assume old 3.5 bow standards and give him an x3 crit.

I like the movie retelling. That was no arrow and he definitely used a makeshift balista. Still epic, but also some serious silliness.


Ok it was a ballista bolt of dragon slaying. An arrow does 6d10 so a ballista bolt must do more. Then he crits. And the dragon failed his saving throw. Dead dragon. And then the orcs and goblins showed up to attack the dwarves in the lonely mountain but didn't realize that the dwarves had an untouchable AC and couldn't touch any of them so the dwarves killed them all roflstomp style. The end.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I feel as though the Smaug scene likely works out better in a non-d20/D&D game.

However, in D&D terms, Bard's arrow shot is likely a combination of a critical hit, a special arrow, a lore/knowledge check which gave a circumstantial bonus, and the target having a specific weakness. Maybe a failed Fort save against something...?
 

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