Near-Epic magic item devaluation

[jonexmachina]

IMC, the prevalent player tactic is the basic buff-and-smash, especially the cleric. The fighter types depend heavily upon magic items, and the mages hide behind layer upon layer of protections.

For ages, tergetted dispels have been the only thing that allowed my monsters to stand any chance without bumping them up to ECLs high above the party. Thus, the party makes rings of dispelling. Classed NPCs survive better, but generally end up resorting to the same tactics as the players.

It was with significant glee that I prepared a BBEG with Mordy's disjunction. But then I hesitated... this one little spell is going to provoke half an hour of dice rolling as each and every magic item in the party makes a DC 25 will save. The highest will save in the party is the cleric at +18 - the fighters are liable to lose everything.

A paladin with low +30s is going to lose one or two items, tops, but at 20th level most dedicated fighters (incedentally, the most item dependant class) are going to lose the shirts of damage reduction off their backs.

BUT - it's in the PHB. Is this supposed to happen? I can see the PCs trading in what remains of their magic items for Tomes (inherant, cant be dispelled) and the fighters comitting seppuku with their Ex- +5 masterwork greatswords. Suddenly its a low magic campagin world for nonspellcasters, while the wizards and sorcerors are mostly unaffected.

I havent heard any great outcry over this spell, but it screams for nerfing to me.

 

[dcollins]

Let the outcry commence!

 

[Darkness]

I havent heard any great outcry over this spell

I have. Quite a few times.

I suppose more people would worry about it if it was used every now and then. Which, considering it's a 9th-level spell, it probably isn't in the vast majority of campaigns.

 

[Endur]

I once built a 20th level Barbarian with no magic items (investing all gold in tomes).

Everybody thought my 20th level Barbarian was way underpowered. I just smiled and said I'm not a fan of magic items.

My Barbarian turned out to be the major mover and shaker in that campaign.


Seriously, Mord's Disjunction is a good spell for a level 17+ wizard to use in your situation. What you need to do, though, is "sell the spell" to the party as part of the story.

i.e.

The Dread Wizard Xstophles throws his crystal ball across the tower and shouts "Curses, Foiled again! Those wretched adventurers and their magic! If only I could end their magical abilities once and for all! Wait, what if I called upon the Great Mord's Disjunction ... that might work!"

Put the spell in a story focus and people won't care about their suddenly missing magic items.

And yes, low will power fighters and rogues will lose more items than wizards and clerics. But you have other ways to soak extra cash and items out of your wizards (spellbooks) and clerics (temples, charity).

 

[Kageneko]

We got hit with a disjunction the other night. I suppose it's my fault, since I had been complaining about how we weren't being challenged and we had too much magical item wealth. Well.. suffice to say, massive devaluation occurred. There were only a few complaints, but not about magical items -- about permanent spells and magical effects still in place. And, of course, now that the DM has used it on us, his minions are fair game

 

[Beowolf]

don't feel to guilty about it if you decide to use the spell because the pcs should be ready to counter such powerfull spells as they rise in level. They could have used divination to find out about it and/or try to sneak attack him before he can cast the spell. There are plenty of ways to avoid the effects of the spell if the pcs properly prepare themselves. Even if they lose a lot of magic items they could always simply go after lesser foes until they have rebuilt their wealth and items. you could even make an adventure around them recovering new itmes in a special way or even traveling to a place that could restore all of their drained items but it is a dangerous path.

 

[Victim]

Consider what happens if the PCs cast Disjunction on your BBEG. As a caster, he'll be heavily reliant on buffs and wards as you mentioned. Without his magic defenses, an opposing caster will usually evaporate - unless it's a GW Dragon with 9th level spells (however, MD would probably be needed to stand a chance at all in that case). Even as an automatic area dispel, MD is pretty unfair.

Our game actually had a similar situation with a BBEG disjoining the high level party. Once we were disjoined (which went through my anti MD contingency spell - lucky DM), the group lost its wizard and cleric/archer almost instantly. Without spell turning or a similar spell, a wizard or elf cleric will be removed from the fight with Power Word Stun. Also, since we lost our energy wards, the lower HP spellcasters died from area attack spells. Fortunately, the group seemed to have a higher average Will save, and we were lucky, so we only lost a few items. Basically, we all would have died if not for using the reality altering aspect of Miracle (cast in a round about way) to undo the Disjunction. This fight was also the end of the campaign, so the long term impact of item loss was a non issue.

If you do use Disjunction, also have a larger than normal treasure haul so that lost items can be replaced more easily.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If I may suggest an alternative: Chained targetted greater dispelling. At high levels, that's going to have enough targets that, if you want to, you can target all four characters and 4 specific items on each character. With a high caster level (possbily boosted through the Inquisition domain, the archmage Spellpower ability, an orange ioun stone, a bard with some of the new complete adventurer spells (Infernal Thremnody IIRC though it only works for evil clerics), etc, that should take down most of the PCs buffs and take their items out for a few rounds--long enough for the majority of the fight. And, if the NPCs win, they get to keep all the PCs treasure rather than just what's left after Mord's Disjunction has done its work. If you want to take away some of their toys, sunder, monsters with special abilities (bebelith, etc), and rods of cancellation are much more controllable ways to do so.

 

[jodyjohnson]

It comes up about once every 2 months on the Wizard's boards and the 'fix with role play' crowd shouts down anyone who claim it's a problem.

They've been beating it there this last week.


Just find a fix that works for your campaign and move on.

You touched on the main problem I have with the spell - too many dice rolls and subsequent re-calculation time. It brings the session to a crawl.

The wealth/value change can be overcome.

Automatically dropping permanent effects has it's own problems between plot and challenges.

 

[jodyjohnson]

There are plenty of ways to avoid the effects of the spell if the pcs properly prepare themselves.

I'd be interested in seeing your list.

Exclude any means/argument that works vs. any given spell. (i.e. kill the caster before he gets it off, reactive counterspell (and it only takes a 10th level Abjuration, GDispelM, or your own MDJ), ready to interrupt, not broken because there might be a spell that might be more appropriate in a specific situation, stay out of line of effect, balanced because no one is allowed to cast it, etc.).