Need advice: Mass Combat for D&D with Miniatures

[MerricB]

G'day, people!

I am looking for a good system based on the d20 System that can handle large battles using miniatures.

I am not looking for an abstract system where miniatures are not used.

The system must be able to handle battles of up to about 2,500 combatants a side, though not requiring that many miniatures. (I got that number by looking at the Battle of Neraka in DL14: Dragons of Triumph). 10:1 scale or 20:1 scale would be fine. 1:1 scale? Forget it.

By those criteria, the rules in the D&D Miniatures Handbook can be discarded for they use 1:1 scale. (Also, no rules for determining the ability of cavalry as yet). This is a pity, because otherwise they fulfill another requirement: Simplicity.

The simplicity that I require in mass-combat miniatures rules does not appear to be found in the event book Cry Havoc by Skip Williams. Indeed, the rules seem to be more complicated than those of standard D&D combat! I may be mistaken, but there are some things in the rules that seem unnecessarily complicated.

(Not to mention that there are some rules that just don't make sense. 50 human soldiers take up a space of 25 squares - each square being 50'x50'!! Please explain that one to me.)

So, are there any other miniature rules (based on the d20 system) that can easily handle 2500 combatants a side?

Cheers!

 

[Darklone]

Oih.... 2500 dudes? Cool. Biggest battle I ever had were about 1200 dudes against my gaming group. Used no mass combat system though.

 

[Vaxalon]

THe system in "Empire" is probably EXACTLY what you need.

 

[MarauderX]

Fields of Blood says it has some easy rules for running mass combat with minis, counters, whatever to represent different troops sizes. It's finally on sale at Amazon, doubt my wife has picked it up for me for Xmas, so I will be buying soon... and can't wait... just 5 days... c'mon...

 

[Silveras]

Mongoose's Strongholds & Dynasties has the Open Mass Combat System Version 2. 20 pages of rules, designed for use with miniatures or counters at a default scale of 10:1, but anywhere from 5:1 to 20:1 is supported.

The unit stats are derived from the basic D&D stats.

I have not had a chance to try it yet, but it may be what you are looking for. The downside is that, unless you have a need for rules for ruling a domain and detailed rules for construction, much of the book would be wasted on you. On the other hand, if you want to use fortifications heavily, the OMCSv2 integrates cleanly with the construction rules for resolving siege tactics.

 

[MerricB]

Just FYI, here's the figures you'd need to run DL14: Dragons of Triumph using the old 1E Battlesystem rules:

Whitestone Forces

Phalanx 1:
12 Elf archers
10 Human archers
12 Human swordsmen
11 Human spearmen
12 Human cavalry
4 Brass dragons

Phalanx 2:
12 Elf archers
10 Human archers
12 Human swordsmen
12 Human cavalry
2 Copper dragons
3 Silver dragons
30 Dwarf axemen
10 Human commoners

Phalanx 3:
2 Gold Dragons
5 Bronze Dragons
2 Brass Dragons
16 Human cavalry
24 Elf archers
12 Human spearmen
12 Human shortswordsmen

Highlord forces:

WHITE:
3 White Dragons
8 Kapak Draconians
4 Human cavalry
6 Ogres
24 Hobgoblins

RED:
4 Red Dragons
9 Ogres
6 Hill giants
8 Human cavalry
5 Sivak Draconians
10 Baaz Draconians
18 Human Spearmen

GREEN
6 Green dragons
8 Kapak draconians
8 Baaz draconians
24 Hobgoblins
12 Ogres

BLUE
4 Blue Dragons
5 Sivak draconians
9 Baaz draconians
6 Hill giants
14 Hobgoblins
8 Hobgoblin archers
9 ogres

BLACK
4 Black dragons
5 Bozak draconians
6 Baaz draconians
9 Ogres
12 Hill giants
8 Human archers
16 Human cavalry

Most figures at 10:1 scale; giants + some cavalry at 5:1 scale, dragons at 2:1 scale

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Well, three options have been presented to me:

AEG's Empire
Pro: Available through MilSims in Australia
Con: Not in the ENworld product library + no reviews
Con: The Alderac website is utterly slow and broken for me.
Con: Softcover

Eden Studio's Fields of Blood: The Guide to War
Con: They can't spell "siege" correctly on their website.
Con: Softcover
Con: The cost.
Con: Not currently available through MilSims in Australia

Mongoose Publishing's Strongholds and Dynasties
Pro: Available through MilSims in Australia
Pro: Hardcover
Pro: Two favourable reviews in the ENworld product library
Pro: Has rules for controling realms
Con: It's Mongoose.
Con: The cost.

Query: Do the rules for controlling realms in each system allow various players to run a game where everyone only concentrates on the business of the realm's interactions? (in the manner of Birthright?) Or are they only for an individual realm, and all details and events must be invented by the DM?

Having "realm" rules would be a good bonus.

Cheers!

 

[Cbas10]

AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures has a surprisingly AMAZING mass combat system in the back of the book. Essentially, each unit is manipulated on the gaming table as a single model. Each unit (you can use any scale you want) acts like a single character, deriving its abilities, feats, and skills from either unit averages or leader's skills. With this system, it is even easy to incorporate D&D Minis' Commander Rating/effect system (if you want the extra detail). Guidlines and rules for everything are there; from PCs acting independantly in such a situation to Critical Hit effects to the fates of casualties in battle.

Based on how diverse the combatants are and how much detail you WANT, this can be a small affair of a dozen models on the table...or it can be a battle of epic proportions rivalling Warhammer. It all depends on the level of detail you want to use. I recently played out a scenario of 300 goblins or so attacking a city's militia of 100 spearmen and knights. We used a total of 12-15 models, plus the player characters' models, and we finished it in the span of just a hair longer than a normal combat scenario. CERTAINLY nothing like a big-nasty Warhammer game.

This system IS certainly only for those who want to turn-by-turn play out a mass combat; not for those who like the more abstract methods of things.

Edit: by the way, I would suggest the following "scale" of troops per model: 25 medium-sized or small (50 if you want to be cruel and use the Swarmfighting feat) creatures, 6 large creatures (including mounted warriors and such), 2 huge creatures, or a single gargantuan or colossal creature. Each square would be 30' on a side (technically creature sizes would lean more to 25' on a side, but using 30' squares or inches makes movement easier). If this is too many models and you want there to be more troops per model, proportionally increase the troop numbers/model and the feet/square ratios. Additionally, we kept in mind the fact that, once engaged, it would be difficult for troops to be "told" to move out of combat or retreat unless there were predetermined signals or what-not (like horns). Communication between troops and leaders was the toughest part for us to mess with, mechanically. In the end, we adopted the D&D Minis rules' Commander Ratings and Effects, as per the Minis Handbook (even on the larger scale, we used the 6-square radius for simplicity's sake).

 

[Silveras]

Query: Do the rules for controlling realms in each system allow various players to run a game where everyone only concentrates on the business of the realm's interactions? (in the manner of Birthright?) Or are they only for an individual realm, and all details and events must be invented by the DM?

Having "realm" rules would be a good bonus.

Cheers!

I have not seen Fields of Blood yet, so I can't say much about that. Of the other two, Empire is more along the line of Birthright's level of abstraction. Strongholds & Dynasties is more "detailing the PCs' realm".

You may find these threads helpful:
AEG Empire - How is it ?
Birthright Comparison with Empire
Anyone have Strongholds and Dynasties or Empire ?
Mongoose's Strongholds & Dynasties
Comparison - Strongholds & Dynasties - Magical Medieval Society - Empire - Birthright