Need clarification on "No Retailer Links" rule

[Teflon Billy]

It basically boils down to one irrefutalbe fact of marketing to our sort of market: the wider you cast your net, the more likely you are to catch more fish. And why would you not want to cash your net wide if you already know you're sitting on a good fishing hole?

But what you are describing is abandoning a good fishing hole for the sake of casting your net wide isn't it?

That doesn't sound like a great plan

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

But what you are describing is abandoning a good fishing hole for the sake of casting your net wide isn't it?

That doesn't sound like a great plan

Only if it proves to be necessary. Following the fishing hole analogy farther (gah!), what the current policy is saying is "yeah, we got us a good ol' fishing hole here, but keep that net small. In fact, we'd prefer if you would just use a fishing pole instead." Sliding into a new one, the genie was let out of the bottle as soon as links were first allowed in press releases, making EnWorld members aware of those products being sold on other sites and the policy is effectively telling the genie to get his ass back in there. That's why my point is that there's a good chance that it goes beyond shifting focus from general marketing to EnWorld marketing, as people seem to be viewing it, and may indeed actually prove to become counter-marketing for everyone except EnWorld itself. I hope not, but that's how such things tend to go once you establish something like this with a consumer and then tell them it's being taken away. It's obviously not what anyone would prefer the end result will be, but only time can tell one way or the other.

 

[WilliamAndersen]

Most likely not, for one big reason.

When considering a site for sales, a publisher has to ask whether or not the site will bring them NEW customers, or simply cannibalize their sales from another source. If it's the latter, it's most often not worth it.

Signing with DTRPG or E23, for example, is often seen as worth it because both stores have regular customers that are not found elsewhere (White Wolf and Steve Jackson Games diehards, who don't frequent other locations). Even with that, however, RPGNow vendors I've spoken with report sales from those locations are often 1/10 to 1/4 of what they're seeing from RPGNow.

According to my company's own sales data, E.N. World members are responsible for roughly 20% of my sales (according to the source links). I'm not convinced that the new site will result in NEW customers, or simply just represent that same number of people, buying from a different location. At this point, it makes more sense for me to sit back for at least a quarter, and see if those customers still come to me, or if they're making the move to the new site.

Gareth,

First, thank you for donating your company's September sales to hurricane relief. Our fiction division has two authors that have made homeless as a result of the storm, and we have all heard the horror stories of people left with nothing. It is very good of many members of the gaming community to step in and let our industry help those that need it. While every bit helps, I don't know of too many that are donating 100% of a month's revenue. So, thank you!

I can certainly understand your decision to wait and see what effect this opening has on your sales at other sites (such as RPGNow). As I sit here tonight, I am on the fence of whether to sign on with the Enworld shop (as I believe many other publishers are).

As you know, a lot of Enworld community members do their pdf shopping at RPGNow. My suspicion (and I could be wrong, certainly) is that many of those member will stay and do their shopping here (to support Enworld, or for the ease of 'one click' to get to the storefront as some publishers post links to their Enworld storefront in their press releases, etc). It could be that Enworld will not be delivering as many 'new' customers as you would like to see, but do you believe that they will deliver some of your old customers that may stick around here? Or customers that are browse shoppers that will not come across products that are not here?

I know that Enworld will have to get a strong line-up of publishers (and, looking at their list of publishers, they are off to a very good start... the publishers on their line up that I am familiar with make some pretty darn good products) to be able to provide strong selection, but I would be interested in yours (or any of the experienced publishers) thoughts on what effect this could have on whether signing on to be a vendor here can keep some of the 'old customers' that used to go to RPGNow (rather than just focussing upon the 'new customers' it can or can't bring in).

Any thoughts are appreciated...

Sincerely,
William
ComStar Media, LLC
http://www.comstar-media.com
http://www.comstar-games.com

 

[Morrus]

I know that Enworld will have to get a strong line-up of publishers (and, looking at their list of publishers, they are off to a very good start..

Just a quick followup to that point -- you can only see about two-thirds of the current list of publishers who have signed up. You can't see publishers who haven't yet activated a product because they system doesn't display them until they do (some are still uploading their catalogues). Examples include WorldWorks and Zeitgeist (who will be releasing Dave Arneson's Blackmoor here). Plus there are a couple of other well-known publishers who are in the process of preparing their products for release here. We've also, of course, approached WotC.

 

[WilliamAndersen]

The next question to ask yourself, is

"Is it worth having the site cannibalize those sales. Will I make more profit here, then there?"

I have no idea what deals devs have with RPGnow and DTRPG but ENGS clearly states they take a 20% cut. If thats less then the competitors then, after the 100$ fee is made back in sales, the companies would have more profit from the same sales, wouldnt they?

Hi there,

e23 charges 20%.

RPGNow charges 25 or 30 percent. Their higher percentage than Enworld or e23 is obviously 'earned' by the enormous customer base they have.

I believe DT:RPG negotiates commissions by the vendor, but most publishers I have heard from have reported that the commission is 'higher than RPGNow'.

William

 

[WilliamAndersen]

Depending on your contract EN's rates are only 5% less than others. That means you would have to sell $2000 worth of product here that you wouldn't sell elsewhere to cover the $100 before EN's rates become more attractive. Some vendors can do that in a month. However, the simple majority of them might be lucky to make that in a year.

Yikes! Put like that, that 99 dollars becomes quite an issue (especially when things like commissions, fees and length of time you are allowed to stay can all be changed with relatively short notice). In four short months we have grown from non-existent to number 70 on RPGNow... but it would take us a little bit of time to make up that 2K.

William

 

[WilliamAndersen]

Warehouse23 is the ONLY online store I've seen that buys banner ads at Webcomics.
The online comic industry is nearly as huge as the pdf market. Except they have a diffrent model.
They sell books, of what they offer FOR FREE online, and they are successfull! People BUY. Its an untapped market and It could be the key to increased sales, for everyone.

I am a big fan of online comics. When we published Kevin and Kell the RPG (based on Bill Holbrook's popular online comic), we got a lucky break. Not only are the pdf sales fairly strong, we are having trouble printing enough books for the orders from distributors (and we are a brand new publisher).

Now, part of this is that we have a very good consolidator in Key 20 for our print books, but a big part of it is the advertising we have on the Kevin and Kell website.

Many other online comic creators have approached us and other small game companies about doing for their online comic what we did with Kevin and Kell. I believe that the opportunities for cross promotion between games and online comics are very plentiful. Advertising to readers of online comics would seem to be a very good idea.

William
ComStar
http://www.comstar-games.com
http://www.comstar-media.com

 

[WilliamAndersen]

Ah no, see, you've missed my point, Steve. You're explaining something obvious, but which has no connection with what I was saying. In fact, you seem to think I'm saying something other than what I am.

As I said, we're not going to make each other understand our respective positions, and those positions clearly differ. I'm not sure that continued confused "debate" serves much purpose, although I have enjoyed it.

Morrus and Steve,

Wow... that discussion was very impressive for two big reasons:

1. The two of you explained your positions in ways that I could completely understand.

and, most importantly...

2. You both stayed very respectful despite disagreeing. Your disagreements were expressed, articulated and discussed... and there the entire discussion was kept above board.

As someone that has been involved in some unfortunate fights (started some of them, unfortunately), thank you for showing people like me how its done!

William
ComStar
http://www.comstar-media.com
http://www.comstar-games.com

 

[WilliamAndersen]

My point wasn't so much about where the deflated sales are coming from so much as the fact that they'd happen, regardless. If sales go down because of a policy here or anywhere else, the nature of publishing is such that the publisher will try and make it up by putting more energy into some place that allows them to compensate.
<snip>
It basically boils down to one irrefutalbe fact of marketing to our sort of market: the wider you cast your net, the more likely you are to catch more fish. And why would you not want to cast your net wide if you already know you're sitting on a good fishing hole?

Steve,

Okay, I understand... thank you for explaining

William

 

[BrooklynKnight]

I am a big fan of online comics. When we published Kevin and Kell the RPG (based on Bill Holbrook's popular online comic), we got a lucky break. Not only are the pdf sales fairly strong, we are having trouble printing enough books for the orders from distributors (and we are a brand new publisher).

Now, part of this is that we have a very good consolidator in Key 20 for our print books, but a big part of it is the advertising we have on the Kevin and Kell website.

Many other online comic creators have approached us and other small game companies about doing for their online comic what we did with Kevin and Kell. I believe that the opportunities for cross promotion between games and online comics are very plentiful. Advertising to readers of online comics would seem to be a very good idea.

William
ComStar
http://www.comstar-games.com
http://www.comstar-media.com

Yes, Yes it would.

Let me pose an example.

4 of the biggest drawn comics on the net are Penny Arcade, Greg Deans Real Life, PvP and Ctrl-Alt-Del.

You know, I'll toss Something Positive and Order of the Stick in there.

With the exception of Something Positive, all of the above comics have released print books of their online comics and have practically sold out.

ALL of those comics cater to geeks and nerds and artists and gamers. Niches that very clearly overlap.

Penny Arcade has started its own gaming convention (roughly 80% video gaming, 20% pen and paper gaming) which, HAS drawn people away from Gencon.

These are MASSIVLY untapped markets as far as advertising goes. Something Positive always has ads for Warehouse23 going for example. In fact their store is at Warehouse23.

A LOT of Online PDF Publishers could get lots of sales by advertising at these comics.

Hrm, maybe I should start an ad agency that specializes in that.