Need feedback on a homebrew idea for magic, gods, etc.

[Angcuru]

So I'm designing a homebrew loosely based off of a novel-directed setting of mine in the works. Here's the basic, rough overview of the situation thus far:

Back in the day, when the universe was just a jumble of gasses and all that, there was basically no activity whatsoever. Then, the universe itself somehow spontaneously gained sentiency, so now the universe has a soul. Simply put, there was now god, and the universe was its body. However, despite having all of existence as its form, this god had virtually no power to affect itself, hence it was powerless.

This is where a Big Bang type event comes into play. Kind of like how a human body in our world will develop cancer and die, the matter of the universe began to decay, with whole matter absorbing the decayed matter until all of existence began to condense, until it came to a single, ultra-dense speck, and kablooie. So now the universe is changed, and so is that first, primal god. As its body the universe was drastically altered massacred, and had a generally rough time, so did this god. The sentiency of the universe was split into to equal entities, and as nothing could have two souls, these two entities became independent of the physical universe, but tied to it nonetheless.

So now we have two entities who, while possessing no physical form, are now able to affect their environment which was previously their joint body, but do so in different ways. There were only two gods, one of creation, and one of change. Hence, the Creator god and the Change god. Creator could only create, while Change could only mold that which already existed.

Seeing as how there were only two sentient entities in the universe, they quickly grew at odds with one another. They jointly decided to begin shaping their infinite playground as they saw fit. Naturally, as the universe already existed, Creator had much less to do than Change. Creator began to believe that the universe was of its own making, and that Change was its servant. There was a clash, and they found that what happened to one happened to the other as well. As long as one existed, so would the other.

However, Change discovered that as it changed Creator, and was changed as well, the changed to Creator remained, while those changes reflected upon itself eventually were undone. Change realized that it was immune to change, so that conversely, Creator must be immune to creation. This gave Change a huge advantage over Creator, which Change planned to use once Creator had fulfilled a purpose which Change began to devise.

As time passed, Change formed the universe into suns, planets, and other bodies, until its plan was at an apex. Creator, at Change's request, created an alternate plane of existence to mirror the universe, and filled it with a form of energy similar to that which composed the two gods, so that new entities may be created.

It began with one world, where Change instilled this new energy into the world, and slowly, life arose. However, only one, simple form of life took existence. Change took it upon itself to infuse some of itself into this life form, and this life began to change continuously. Creator and Change observed as different creatures begane to branch off and form new species as time passed.

Eventually, humanity began to take shape, and the two gods took note that however moronic, this race actually thought, and was sentient. This was the event which Change had been waiting for, to rid itself of the now unnecessary Creator and become the sole god. To this end, Change destroyed itself, knowing that in time, it would reform. Creator however, was completely annihilated by this, and by its very nature would never wholly reform.

Unseen to Change, however, its destruction released all the energy of both gods, sending the forces of creation and change into the universe. The change that had been slowly affecting the creatures of the first world took off at an amazing rate, rapidly changing existing creatures into new species.

As time passed, fragments of Creator began to be absorbed into the creatures of the world, and eventually, one entity of each race would absorb a fragment of this divinity. In this way, each race had its own god and protector, the paragon of their form. These gods were physical by nature, gods which the races they protected could see, touch, and worship. They controlled the essence of Creator which flowed through the world, granting it to their worshippers so that they may share in that power, however small.

The essence and of Change, however, was not controlled, and flowed through the world alongside that of Creator. Certain sub-races developed of each race who became able to control this energy at whim, though to varing degrees of power.

Unforseen to Change, it did not reform into its previous form. Like Creator, there were fragments of Change which found their way into sentient begins. Instead of becoming new guardian gods of a specific race, however, these beings were infused with the malice of Change, and sought each other out in hopes of slaying one another. As each one was killed, the remaining creatures defiled by the fragments of Change grew more powerful.

These fallen creatures became the scourge of this world, seeking only to further their own power, killing one another until all of the fragments of change were fused into one, forging a new being which threatened the very existence of the world. When this occurred, the races of the world had to join together simply to survive, ignoring previous conflicts for such a time as needed to defeat this new, real threat. The first time, many races were completely destroyed, others brought to the brink of extinction. The one fragment of Change again became many, and the process began anew.

A pact was formed between the gods of each race, that any time the fragments of Change became whole again, they would unite for so long as necessary to strike the new threat down.


Well, that's the skeleton of the thing. I'll get around to fitting in races, religions, and all that over time. Commentary welcome.

 

[GSHamster]

Interesting. However, I think that you really have two separate themes going.

One is the idea of Creator and Changer as two separate entities, warring and cooperating throughout the ages. The other is this quasi-Highlander style evil, which needs to be defeated by everybody uniting.

Personally, I find the Creator/Changer theme far more intriguing, and I'd suggest developing it further. For example, you could add a male/female duality to it by making the Creator female, and the Changer male (or vice versa, but the other way would require more thought). I think you need to define what is Creation, and what is Change. For example, magic could fall under Creation's sphere, as most magic involves creating something from nothing.

Sounds neat, all in all.

 

[Angcuru]

Thanks. The Creator/Changer theme is really the core matter of the whole setting, obviously. The quasi-Highlander evil, as you put it, is more of an inverse reflection of the grudging co-operation of the many, lesser gods. So, Creator's shards form greater beings/gods who by their very nature want to preserve the status quo, while Changer's shards form 'demonic' entities who want nothing more than chaos and bloodshed, with each one wanting to control it all. Kind of like a bunch of mini-Saurons (ow, bad analogy) trying to take each other down and kill everything else in the process, while the Gods try to preserve their respective races by fighting back. So in a way, Creator and Change are still duking it out. Overall a very dangerous place.

I was figuring on having two main spheres of magic, Creation and Change, like you observed.

Creation magic would somewhat mirror standard Divine magic, in that it is granted by the Gods to their foremost worshippers. It can only be used to create something from nothing, and that's all they can do. By it's nature, it is more suited to aiding in peaceful ventures, as in construction and that sort of thing. But, it can be turned to war, I.E. creating a virtually unlimited supply of ammunition for an army, creating creatures to serve on the battlefield, acting like artillery by conjuring big boulders above the enemy and watching them go splat, that sort of thing.

Change magic, on the other hand, is similar to Arcane magic in that is primarily an innate ability, but can be studied and developed by non-gifted people. By its nature it can only alter existing material and forces. Lots of interesting possibilities. One can combat aging and achieve a form of eternal youth, or use the inverse to inflict decades of aging upon and adversary. City walls could be turned to rubble, rivers turned to dust, the very air turned to fire. There is a more benevolent side, of course. Wounds could be healed, and that sort of thing.

Both forms of magic would require great imagination. Of course, I'd have to create LOTS of all-new spells, but some from standard D&D could be ported. But I plan to level it off as low-mid magic, with little understanding of the forces in play. I want to avoid FR-esque overing magicking of the setting, so I could have each form of magic be detrimental to its users. Perhaps each use of creation magic could cause a very slight, but gradual development of frailty in the user. Change magic could warp the user's mind and body, causing deformities and amnesia. Before any very powerful magic could be developed by any one caster, they would be killed or driven mad by the forces they seek to control. As such, for any real development of magic, the two sects would have to be in cooperation in some sense, likely grudgingly.

 

[fusangite]

What you've done here is what many Roman philosophers did: you have combined Stoicism and Platonism and put your own personal twist on them. This is all fine, as far as it goes, and it is surprisingly well-traversed ground. You've made the intelligible universe the universe of energy, thereby rendering it more physical (nicely Stoicizing the Platonic tendencies here) and you have made the demiurge and the creator god equals (adding a bit of a Manichean touch) and introduced change as a principle, which adds a nice oriental component to the theology that you wouldn't otherwise get (perhaps it's a dash a Taoism added to the mix). The creator vs. changer thing is again a nice physicalist riff on Platonism which argued for the pre-existence of matter and called "creation" the act of organizing and animating said matter. That's all fine.

What I would suggest you really question is why your universe is composed of gases, energy, galaxies, etc. If there is a flaw in your model, it is there. This is a real mess if you are running D&D because D&D physics are not the physics of our universe. You seem to be writing a creation story appropriate for a sci-fi universe rather than a fantasy one. I'd recommend you rethink the physical similarities between your universe and ours. Remember: the universe you are designing is about magic not space travel, unless I'm very much mistaken, in which case, carry on.

 

[GSHamster]

Thanks. The Creator/Changer theme is really the core matter of the whole setting, obviously. The quasi-Highlander evil, as you put it, is more of an inverse reflection of the grudging co-operation of the many, lesser gods. So, Creator's shards form greater beings/gods who by their very nature want to preserve the status quo, while Changer's shards form 'demonic' entities who want nothing more than chaos and bloodshed, with each one wanting to control it all. Kind of like a bunch of mini-Saurons (ow, bad analogy) trying to take each other down and kill everything else in the process, while the Gods try to preserve their respective races by fighting back. So in a way, Creator and Change are still duking it out. Overall a very dangerous place.

I don't know. Simplifying it down to "Creator good, Change bad" really short-changes the idea. Plus, you seem to be adding a lot of extra complexity (to an already complex system) with the death of Creator/Changer and random other gods and shards idea. Wouldn't you have more or less the same system if you only had the original two gods, Creator and Changer?

Also, what about the Destroyer? Where do such concepts as death and entropy fit in to this landscape?

 

[Angcuru]

Hmm... interesting points, I'll work on those.

I wrote in the stuff about gasses, stars and the like primarily as a stepping stone to get to the other parts of the story/setting. But I do envision using this setting for a while, so maybe this will allow me to jump forward a few thousand years in time and develop a futuristic sci-fi setting in the same universe.

What I'm trying to do is sort of merge real world and fantasy physics. In doing so I think players in the setting would feel a sort of similarity to our reality, possibly allowing them to get deeper into the setting, even if only subconsciously. Plus, I think it is reasonable to say that D&D would run fine in this setting. It would simply require an explanation of how things work. Remember that fundamental energies of creation and change are still floating around; this provides for countless phenoma, real and imagined. D&D mechanics will still work, but simply be explained in a different manner.

And on the issue of the Creator - Good, Changer - Bad, I think it speaks for itself. The setting is populated by humanoid beings, who almost universally prefer a degree of stability and predicatbility in their world. 'Creation' is a foundation for stability and preservation of things that are, therefore, percieved as good by nearly all sentient beings.

Change as an entity/series of entities is percieved as decay destruction, entropy, unpredictability. A lot of what humanoids percieve as evil is the undesired alteration of their world, which in turn, brings about a view of Change as evil. The 'shards' of change are sort of like parasites, which cannot do anything unless they are within the physical world, and they do this by attaching themsleves to unborn souls. Then the souls with shards of change within them mature, and the Change Shard begins to take them over and use them as tools to try and reform the many shards into one. The thing is, however, that they are unable to differentiate between beings that are and are not posessed by other shards. So, this inevitably leads to homicidal tendencies such as mass-murder, becoming a warlord so by increasing the number of deaths, you increase the possibility of killing another shard-possessed humanoid, therefore increasing the power of the remaining shards.

It was my intent all along to use Creator and Changer as building blocks for a setting with multiple, lesser gods and their respective opposites. The setting would be completely different if Creator and Changer were still whole, a lot less interesting, and simply put, boring. Keep in mind that if Changer did not shatter and its essense released into the world, the only humanoids would be humans. Plus, it provides a reasonable explantion for monstrous creatures, additional races in the future, etc.

 

[fusangite]

I wrote in the stuff about gasses, stars and the like primarily as a stepping stone to get to the other parts of the story/setting. But I do envision using this setting for a while,

I would suggest that you ask some fairly basic questions that might make this process easier:
(a) are the gods of the universe in physical locations within the universe or do they exist only in an immaterial/spiritual/intellectual sense?
(b) do the gods themselves exist within time?
(c) are there four elements as per the core rules?
(d) are there planes as per the core rules?
(e) if the physics of the modern world is working (ie. Newton, Einstein, quantum theory) is operating, how is magic explained withing this paradigm?

so maybe this will allow me to jump forward a few thousand years in time and develop a futuristic sci-fi setting in the same universe.

If this is the case, I suggest you think really hard about how magic works. Does it manipulate quantum effects, for instance? Most fantasy worlds in which magic exists do not easily coexist with modern physics; you will need to develop some kind of pseudoscience bridging these things if this is your plan.

What I'm trying to do is sort of merge real world and fantasy physics. In doing so I think players in the setting would feel a sort of similarity to our reality, possibly allowing them to get deeper into the setting, even if only subconsciously. Plus, I think it is reasonable to say that D&D would run fine in this setting.

Players can only get deeper into your physics if they make sense; by making sense, I'm not saying conform to scientific "fact." By making sense I mean cohering in some kind of unified system. They need to look at the popular D&D spells and the physics of your world and say "oh that's how it works."

It would simply require an explanation of how things work. Remember that fundamental energies of creation and change are still floating around; this provides for countless phenoma, real and imagined. D&D mechanics will still work, but simply be explained in a different manner.

Agreed. But I think you may find this trickier than it first appears. I'd be happy to provide further feedback as you begin developing this system as I would imagine that your work would be very valuable and solve problems that many GMs have been wrestling with for years.

 

[Ferret]

I shan't get to deeply involved into all of the philliosophics, however, does it not seem regulatory tht each of the changlings to wish to resume how to how they were? It doesn't see like a very random 'mission' (if you will). The murders can signify the change easily, but it is the grander purpose that seems at flaw. Whast if they were all beset to change things beset with murder and other desires an the joining is onlly an incoveniance, as one it can create bigger change but as wide spread, so it does desire to be split but not whilst they are changing.

This is all just thoughts, I do like your ideas though it seems like alot of thought has gone into this.

 

[Angcuru]

I would suggest that you ask some fairly basic questions that might make this process easier:
(a) are the gods of the universe in physical locations within the universe or do they exist only in an immaterial/spiritual/intellectual sense?
(b) do the gods themselves exist within time?
(c) are there four elements as per the core rules?
(d) are there planes as per the core rules?
(e) if the physics of the modern world is working (ie. Newton, Einstein, quantum theory) is operating, how is magic explained withing this paradigm?

Good idea.

A+B) The gods in this universe, I.E. the Creator Fragments exist simultaneously on the Spirit and Physical planes, as do all living things. However, unlike living beings, they are conscious on both. They are tangible, and physically appear as the ideal of the race they represent. Their position within the society of the race they represent varies between races. In some, they act as theocratic rulers. In others they control the religious sect of the societies, while there is a mortal ruler of the race. There are many, many variations, in that it seems that each god's station among their race is diffferent from any other.

C+D) The four core elements exist as they do in our world. I.E. primarily as an archaic intellectual concept. There are only two planes of existance, the Spiritual and the Physical. The spiritual plane of existance is, for all intents and purposes, a parallel existance directly connected to and containing the souls, spirits, and life energy of the Physical world. Without the Spiritual world, there could be no life, and without the Physical world, the spiritual world would have no purpose, and would eventually decay.

E) Magic is simply an additional rule of physics. As each aspect of physics affects the other, so do they affect magic and vice versa. They complement and support one another. Magic does not alter other physical laws, it uses them, and in doing do, enforces them. With the presence of magic, some laws change. I.E. Conservatoin of matter. With the existence of Creation magic, matter can be added to the world, but it cannot be destroyed. It can only be altered.

For example, if a Change magic user were to use a Fireball spell. The magic would use the laws of intertia, friction, and such to acccelerate a given chunk of matter be it air, rock, etc. within a confined space to its temperature of combustion, compressing it and buiding up pressure. This is then released towards a given target, and contained pressure and combustion is released, in turn producing a big explosion of fire.

A heal spell would alter the subjects metabolism, rapidly speeding up the healing process so that a wounded area is rapidly repaired by the body. However, this would require that if the subject did not have stored energy I.E. food/fat to be metabolized, then the spell would feel off the energy which would be siphoned from the caster.

And so on.

No offense, Ferret, but I am having difficulty understanding your last post. Are you commenting that it seems more sensible that the change that can be inflicted by many fragments is the same as can be inflicted by one whole Change? That may be so, but each fragment still retains some of the drive Change had in his initial plan. They want, need to try and become whole again, whether or not they can recombine into the God-Form of Change. They can become whole, but as the energy that bound Change together has been released into the world and not contained, if the fragments were to become whole, they would simply split once again if the whole were not otherwise 'destroyed'.

 

[jmucchiello]

My only problem with this is seeing change as evil. Life without change is not life. Granted this is a modern outlook but hey, I'm modern in my thinking. Look at modern pop culture to see many examples of change being good and lack of change being bad.

Besides, look at magic: Is a fireball change? No it's creation. Is healing change? yep.

Look at physics: If you can create but not destroy, doesn't creation become entropyin reverse? Wouldn't the universe "fill up" eventually?

Just my thoughts.