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Need Help Brainstorming How A Xenophobic Empire Can Arise
- Thread starter Oversquid
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Celebrim
Legend
Not only do I believe that humans are suicidal by nature, but even when they want to avoid suicide they are terrible at recognizing suicidal odds. In short, humans aren't rational and any theory of human behavior that postulates rationality will come far short of describing reality.
We tend to ignore this war in the USA because it happens at roughly the same time period as the American Civil War, but its worth perhaps reading about The War of the Triple Alliance. It I think throughly addresses if not the question of whether a great nation might fall into xenophobic fantasies (already I think addressed adequately by well known examples like Germany), at least the question of whether a nation might indulge in suicidal fantasies of overthrowing powers far far greater than its own.
We tend to ignore this war in the USA because it happens at roughly the same time period as the American Civil War, but its worth perhaps reading about The War of the Triple Alliance. It I think throughly addresses if not the question of whether a great nation might fall into xenophobic fantasies (already I think addressed adequately by well known examples like Germany), at least the question of whether a nation might indulge in suicidal fantasies of overthrowing powers far far greater than its own.
I am utterly convinced that real-life suicidal hubris trumping self-preservation is the exception rather than the rule.. that said, even if empire does embark on a suicidal/self-destructive World War, they will likely not succeed at a) building an empire, and b) launch an industrial revolution to pry the secrets of the universe, before c) they are crushed by the gods and numerous enemies they have foolished declared war upon, thus negating the OP's premise.
Unless the War of the Triple Alliance yielded the creation of an advanced scientific/industrial empire?
Unless the War of the Triple Alliance yielded the creation of an advanced scientific/industrial empire?
I would think that the rich people would need a means to keep the poor people distracted and focussed on an external enemy who keeps them down, rather than letting them look inward and realize that they are poor because the wealthy people have all the money.
telling your poor that all the foreigners are taking the good jobs and the women is an old trick. And it has worked. That's how Hitler did it. And he wasn't the only one to do it.
Look at history, look at current events. Any growing group often identifies another group as the "enemy" and attracts followers who believe they have been hurt by that enemy. The Occupy movement, the Red Scare/McCarthy era, Hitler post-WW1, Al Quaeda, the Tea Party, the American Revolution.
They discover science? Eg they discover that deities are just the creations of belief, without belief they don't exist, and the power of belief can be turned to self-belief, creating "men like gods" (granting Clerical magic to themselves, of course!)
Perhaps they also discover that all non-human races are created from the dreams and fears of humanity, so they are not really real, so it's ok to do whatever you want to them, they're just phantasms after all.
I would look first to the rhetoric of the French Revolution, with its Rationalist rhetoric combined with a sacralisation of Man.
Perhaps they also discover that all non-human races are created from the dreams and fears of humanity, so they are not really real, so it's ok to do whatever you want to them, they're just phantasms after all.
I would look first to the rhetoric of the French Revolution, with its Rationalist rhetoric combined with a sacralisation of Man.
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Thats a good thought, but the way I have it, the gods, and the non-human races are 100% real like the humans.
I think the term I mean is, they consider science to be the higher pursuit than magic or even deific power. Science was always there, but it wasn't really so important with magic doing all the stuff.
Celebrim
Legend
This is called the Zhanist heresy on Sartha (my homebrew).
I think 'discover' is the wrong word here, because it implies certainty. I would prefer to say that they come to believe that the deities are simply creations of human belief, and that if deprived of that belief the deities would lose power and cease to exist. And yes, some of the Zhanists try to use this
to turn their own (notably Keltern the Leper) into a diety.
Occasionally players have balked about whether in a universe with things like Commune if this is even possible.
Whether or not the heretics are actually correct is a campaign level secret. People on Sartha don't actually know the truth.
It's widely assumed that regardless of the truth of the matter the deities would say the same thing to mortals, or even that the deities themselves don't know the truth but rather believe that they exist in the way that men have imagined that they exist. That is, even if a deity was actually the product of collective belief, if that collective belief was that the deity had made mankind, the deity would believe that it had. Therefore it would be no use to ask the deity about the truth of the matter.
I would suggest a plague that only affects humans, but is carried by non-humans. Make the plague immune to magic. That immediately turns the human empire xenophobic in a hurry.
Maybe after a few years, a cure for the plague, derived using scientific methodology (perhaps requiring the sacrifice of an intelligent non-human for added horror) is found. The success of the non-religious scientists turns people against the gods, especially when the gods still demand tithes, and creates a boom in humanistic research.
Because curing the plague requires killing non-humans, humans would rapidly come to see the non-humans as "less than human", in order to justify killing them and saving themselves.
Maybe after a few years, a cure for the plague, derived using scientific methodology (perhaps requiring the sacrifice of an intelligent non-human for added horror) is found. The success of the non-religious scientists turns people against the gods, especially when the gods still demand tithes, and creates a boom in humanistic research.
Because curing the plague requires killing non-humans, humans would rapidly come to see the non-humans as "less than human", in order to justify killing them and saving themselves.
At a prestigious university of a thriving multicultural mega-metropolis, a team of top alchemist/scientists discover the impossible - a small portal that produces any element you can think of: gold, water, diamonds, etc. and it seems that the artifact steals the requested materials from afar. It is not a divine artifact, and in fact, has a psionic anti-divine/blasphemous aura of some sort.
The scientists have a heated argument: we must have it for the betterment of humanity, no, this belongs to the gods, no, we must take this to the elves because the elves funded this research project, no, the elves will just kill us all and keep it their secret, no wait, this artifact may be tainted and must be studied carefully before further decisions are made, no, we should use it immediately, no, this thing is wrong, everytime we use it to gain wealth and resources someone else will lose their wealth and resources, etc.
With inflamed passion and greed, there is an accident, anger to leads to another few deaths, and finally the human scientist is standing in the lab amongst his slain non-human colleagues. He takes the portal and rushes off to the human section of the palace, which, of course, goes into an uproar. Those who advise cooperation and diplomacy and caution are drowned out by the fear and greed of the majority. The eventual consensus is that the metropolis with its advanced arcane/scientific edge is poised to rule the lands in combination with the unlimited wealth and resources promised by the artifact. Nobody can be trusted, of course, because everyone (including the gods themselves) will try to wrest this device from our hands. The metropolis might even be wiped off the map by wrathful deities or covetous demons. Yes, offense is the best defense, and we will rapidly expand into an empire, terrible and awesome to behold, become so mighty that no one can despoil us. We shall learn the secrets of the universe so that we fend off the jealous gods themselves. Contracts may have to be drawn with neutral entities (perhaps the devils, after all, we'll have unlimited gold to pay them) to give us an early advantage and early defense. And so forth.
I also like the plague idea if it's meant to be a more gradual process, although, I assume the campaign has to account for a plague of such proportions.
I regret the deus ex machina of this artifact (it seems almost every D&D story starts with an artifact), but I feel this serves as both the drive and advantage that propels the metropolis into an effective (ie, non-suicidal) xenophobic scientific-revolutionary empire, and I guess it could be plunked into a standard campaign setting as is more or less.
The scientists have a heated argument: we must have it for the betterment of humanity, no, this belongs to the gods, no, we must take this to the elves because the elves funded this research project, no, the elves will just kill us all and keep it their secret, no wait, this artifact may be tainted and must be studied carefully before further decisions are made, no, we should use it immediately, no, this thing is wrong, everytime we use it to gain wealth and resources someone else will lose their wealth and resources, etc.
With inflamed passion and greed, there is an accident, anger to leads to another few deaths, and finally the human scientist is standing in the lab amongst his slain non-human colleagues. He takes the portal and rushes off to the human section of the palace, which, of course, goes into an uproar. Those who advise cooperation and diplomacy and caution are drowned out by the fear and greed of the majority. The eventual consensus is that the metropolis with its advanced arcane/scientific edge is poised to rule the lands in combination with the unlimited wealth and resources promised by the artifact. Nobody can be trusted, of course, because everyone (including the gods themselves) will try to wrest this device from our hands. The metropolis might even be wiped off the map by wrathful deities or covetous demons. Yes, offense is the best defense, and we will rapidly expand into an empire, terrible and awesome to behold, become so mighty that no one can despoil us. We shall learn the secrets of the universe so that we fend off the jealous gods themselves. Contracts may have to be drawn with neutral entities (perhaps the devils, after all, we'll have unlimited gold to pay them) to give us an early advantage and early defense. And so forth.
I also like the plague idea if it's meant to be a more gradual process, although, I assume the campaign has to account for a plague of such proportions.
I regret the deus ex machina of this artifact (it seems almost every D&D story starts with an artifact), but I feel this serves as both the drive and advantage that propels the metropolis into an effective (ie, non-suicidal) xenophobic scientific-revolutionary empire, and I guess it could be plunked into a standard campaign setting as is more or less.
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