Need help building...Flint Fireforge!
- Thread starter Herzog
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insanogeddon
First Post
Occult Slayer is a GOOD idea.
Can I suggest approaching your DM about 2 things.
1. Say you have been reading about flint fireforge and his history states that he was working for his dad BEFORE adventuring so it doesn't make snse how he is a fighter BEFORE he is an expert. See what he says... you might get more crafting skills.
2. Point out that in your research for the character in 2nd ed you could throw hand axes, in the stories he has thrown a hand axe, in lord of the rings gimble throws a hand axe, his hand axe in his 2nd ed stat block specifies THROWN. But in 3.5 stupidly hand axes CANNOT be thrown, because they invented the 'throwing axe'. So to adhere to the character it would make sense to swap them even tho throwing axe has a worst critical chance.
From an optimisation stand point you can get POWER THROW from complete adventurer to get str to hit for throwing weapons. Between power throw and improved initiative you need for occult slayer you should get a free attack gimble style when he axes gandalf the white in the forrest before even the elf can react.
Also with the occult slayers 2nd level ready ability and a thrown weapon it will be easy for you to disrupt casters.
Can I suggest approaching your DM about 2 things.
1. Say you have been reading about flint fireforge and his history states that he was working for his dad BEFORE adventuring so it doesn't make snse how he is a fighter BEFORE he is an expert. See what he says... you might get more crafting skills.
2. Point out that in your research for the character in 2nd ed you could throw hand axes, in the stories he has thrown a hand axe, in lord of the rings gimble throws a hand axe, his hand axe in his 2nd ed stat block specifies THROWN. But in 3.5 stupidly hand axes CANNOT be thrown, because they invented the 'throwing axe'. So to adhere to the character it would make sense to swap them even tho throwing axe has a worst critical chance.
From an optimisation stand point you can get POWER THROW from complete adventurer to get str to hit for throwing weapons. Between power throw and improved initiative you need for occult slayer you should get a free attack gimble style when he axes gandalf the white in the forrest before even the elf can react.
Also with the occult slayers 2nd level ready ability and a thrown weapon it will be easy for you to disrupt casters.
insanogeddon
First Post
Or if you don't like throwing. Point out his most used weapon is a battle axe.. so its probably his FOCUS weapon.
Herzog
Adventurer
I've been going over the class, but I'm still not convinced it's that good.
It's low on skillpoints and class skills (which would interfere with my Disable Device part of the build) and has some abilities that are easily duplicated by spells. I might stick with rogue or some SA increasing PrC...
That was more easy than imagined. My DM actually used Expert for the first two levels, but (using ETools) forgot to assign the class skills.... Which effectively doubles my skill pool for the expert levels.
The DM already gave him a +1 handaxe. (the axe he got from his brother)
I think I'll stick with it, seeing as how I'm probably going to get most of my dmg from SA.
I may get Power Throw, but I'll probably be the Tank of the group, so getting ranged attacks will be rare. And besides, even if I could swap the handaxe for a throwing axe, I don't want to go throwing my only magic weapon (AND occult slayer focus weapon...) away. I might loose it!
Anyway, thanks for the pointers. Any ideas on getting reduced TWF penalties still welcome (I'm now considering dropping ranger altogether, and just eat the TWF penalties should the situation arise, allowing me at least to wear heavier armor)
Herobizkit
Adventurer
Characters with no Int bonus (or in your case, at a penalty!) aren't exactly designed to be skill monkeys. You could always take Skill Focus (Disable Device) if you want it higher, but if you're only taking it for flavour, call it a "hobby" and move on. 
Expert gives 6 skill points/level. With your Int penalty, that works out to 4 skill points/level. This means that the DM could have maxed out 4 of your skills. Did your DM tell you which ten of your skills are considered class skills? (Have you even looked at the Expert class?) And Disable Device is based off Int as well! You're fighting a lost battle, friend.
The only core off-set for TWF penalties is high Str. Still, a -2/-2 is the typical penalty for Flurry et al as well, so you're not hurting as a result. Ditto the comment about a spiked shield.
And hey, you could always spring for a Throwing and Returning enchantment on your hand axe so you could biff it at will (which I find ridiculous; hand axes get a x3 crit multiplier, versus a x2 for a throwing axe, in exchange for "can't be thrown").
Expert gives 6 skill points/level. With your Int penalty, that works out to 4 skill points/level. This means that the DM could have maxed out 4 of your skills. Did your DM tell you which ten of your skills are considered class skills? (Have you even looked at the Expert class?) And Disable Device is based off Int as well! You're fighting a lost battle, friend.
The only core off-set for TWF penalties is high Str. Still, a -2/-2 is the typical penalty for Flurry et al as well, so you're not hurting as a result. Ditto the comment about a spiked shield.
And hey, you could always spring for a Throwing and Returning enchantment on your hand axe so you could biff it at will (which I find ridiculous; hand axes get a x3 crit multiplier, versus a x2 for a throwing axe, in exchange for "can't be thrown").
pawsplay
Hero
Why does a 2e dwarf fighter have Open Lock and Nimble Fingers? Apart from the illogic of that from a conversion standpoint, with an 8 Int, that's just wrong. Actually, the low Int is problematic in 3e, but there's not much to do about that in this scenario.
Frankly, all the dude does is fight, and forge a couple of weapons. Should be Fighter 4. With 7 skill points, uh, Craft (weaponsmithing) 2, Craft (blacksmithing) 2, Craft (carpentry) 1, Handle Animal 1, Speak Language 1. For feats, Skill Focus (Craft blacksmiting), Skill Focus (craft weaponsmithing), W Focus (battle axe) (B), W Spec (battle axe) (B), Point Blank Shot (B).
I see no reason to do anything other than fighter levels in the future. He's your basic tough guy. Logical feat choices for his fighter bonus feats would be (6th) Point Blank Shot, (8th) Improved Critical (battle axe), (10th) Precise Shot, (12th) Power Attack. For his regular feats, (6th) Open-Minded, (9th) Lightning Reflexes, (12th) Far Shot. Open-Minded would help him max out his Crafting ranks, while Precise Shot would make hiim handier throwing an axe.
Frankly, all the dude does is fight, and forge a couple of weapons. Should be Fighter 4. With 7 skill points, uh, Craft (weaponsmithing) 2, Craft (blacksmithing) 2, Craft (carpentry) 1, Handle Animal 1, Speak Language 1. For feats, Skill Focus (Craft blacksmiting), Skill Focus (craft weaponsmithing), W Focus (battle axe) (B), W Spec (battle axe) (B), Point Blank Shot (B).
I see no reason to do anything other than fighter levels in the future. He's your basic tough guy. Logical feat choices for his fighter bonus feats would be (6th) Point Blank Shot, (8th) Improved Critical (battle axe), (10th) Precise Shot, (12th) Power Attack. For his regular feats, (6th) Open-Minded, (9th) Lightning Reflexes, (12th) Far Shot. Open-Minded would help him max out his Crafting ranks, while Precise Shot would make hiim handier throwing an axe.
insanogeddon
First Post
Occult Slayer gives: bonuses to saves so your not a butt monkey to npcs, +d6 damage, x2 damage vs casters when you ready, non-detection, spell turning (this alone is great damage as a turned spell is more damage than you shall do), and immune to mind effecting spells. You name it from an illithids mind blast, a vampyres charm etc.
I would go for breadth and immunities in a RP style character like this as earthdawn style it comes down to epic moments and building a legend and the old fighter levels I hacked it with my axe, or sneak attacked it after spending 3 rounds arranging a flank in my heavy armour is far less book worthy then using 'dwarven fortitude' (occult slayer immune to mind effects) to shrug off the illithid liches mind blast before planting an axe in its head disrupting its meteor swarm. As your so limited its better not to compete on normal grounds as if your in a normal game, run your own race.
Maybe every 4 levels take a level of Swashbuckler for full bab, and better skill points to alocate to disable device, or keep with expert.
If you care for the theme of flint fireforge he did most definitely have a THROWING axe. You need not throw it but it WAS a throwing axe.
Even if you only care for mechanics flexibility is a life saver (those reach weapons become less relevant) and tho granted flint would NEVER throw 'his brothers axe' any more than he would go swimming .. it does not stop him from throwing OTHER throwing axes, maybe masterwork ones he creates with all his craft skills. If ya like throwing try quick draw on for size. An extra attack every fight and forcing THEM to close with you so they get one and you get a full attack.. nevermind harpies/beholders/manticores or any other flying opponent might be handy.
I would go for breadth and immunities in a RP style character like this as earthdawn style it comes down to epic moments and building a legend and the old fighter levels I hacked it with my axe, or sneak attacked it after spending 3 rounds arranging a flank in my heavy armour is far less book worthy then using 'dwarven fortitude' (occult slayer immune to mind effects) to shrug off the illithid liches mind blast before planting an axe in its head disrupting its meteor swarm. As your so limited its better not to compete on normal grounds as if your in a normal game, run your own race.
Maybe every 4 levels take a level of Swashbuckler for full bab, and better skill points to alocate to disable device, or keep with expert.
If you care for the theme of flint fireforge he did most definitely have a THROWING axe. You need not throw it but it WAS a throwing axe.
Even if you only care for mechanics flexibility is a life saver (those reach weapons become less relevant) and tho granted flint would NEVER throw 'his brothers axe' any more than he would go swimming .. it does not stop him from throwing OTHER throwing axes, maybe masterwork ones he creates with all his craft skills. If ya like throwing try quick draw on for size. An extra attack every fight and forcing THEM to close with you so they get one and you get a full attack.. nevermind harpies/beholders/manticores or any other flying opponent might be handy.
Last edited:
Herzog
Adventurer
For those interested: I'm currently going for this build:
Race: Dwarf
Stats:
STR 16, DEX 10, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 13
1 Expert 1 Nimble Fingers
2 Expert 2 Skill Focus (Blacksmithing)
3 Fighter 1 Weapon Focus (Throwing axe*)
4 Fighter 2 Improved Shield Bash
Skillranks at lvl 4: Appraise 1, Craft (Armorsmithing) 1, Craft (Blacksmithing) 5, Craft(Carpentry) 5, Craft (Locksmithing) 1, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 2, Disable Device 5, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge
(Dungeoneering) 1, Open Lock 4, Speak Language 1
5 SpellThief 1*. Sneak Attack (+1d6 when flanking etc.)
Skillranks: Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spell Craft 2
6 Ranger 1 Track, Favored Enemy (Arcanist)*
Feat: Improved Initiative
Skillranks: Knowledge(Arcana) 4, Spell Craft 3 (left: 1 point, undecided)
7 Ranger 2 TWF
Skillranks: (left: 5 points, undecided)
8 Occult Slayer 1 (+1 on saves vs spells,+1d6 vs spellcasters)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
9 Occult Slayer 2 (double damage on readied attack, spellturning 1/day)
Feat: Mage Slayer (spellcasters cannot cast defensively, +1 will saves)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
10 Occult Slayer 3 (detect magic, +2 on saves vs spells)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
11 Occult Slayer 4 (nondetection, spellturning 2/day)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
12 Occult Slayer 5 (immune to mind affecting, +3 on saves vs spells)
Feat: Pierce Magical Protection (ignore and dispel spells that improve AC)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
*: I'm going to try and convince my DM to allow:
-the handaxe to become a throwing axe (no great loss if he doesn't agree, but I agree with some of you here that it is more in line with the character)
-the Spellthief class. Even though I'm only taking one lvl, it allows me to buy the knowledge arcana and spellcraft skills cheap. If not, I'm stuck with buying them cross class using rogue and ranger, and I'll have a lot less skillpoints to spend.
-The Arcane Hunter alternate class feature (Complete Mage). Even though it's from a non-allowed sourcebook, it's not that far from the 'normal' class feature, and it matches the rest of the build.
I'd like to have your opinion on this build. (again, please ignore the first four levels and the stats, there's not a lot I can do about them anymore)
Specifically, I'd like some input on the feats I've chosen (except for Improved Initiative, which is a prereq for the Occult Slayer) and suggestions for skill point allocation and ability point allocation at lvl 8 and 12.
The DM has announced the campaign probably won't go past lvl 12, but just in case it does: any suggestions for progression beyond the specified levels?
Race: Dwarf
Stats:
STR 16, DEX 10, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 13
1 Expert 1 Nimble Fingers
2 Expert 2 Skill Focus (Blacksmithing)
3 Fighter 1 Weapon Focus (Throwing axe*)
4 Fighter 2 Improved Shield Bash
Skillranks at lvl 4: Appraise 1, Craft (Armorsmithing) 1, Craft (Blacksmithing) 5, Craft(Carpentry) 5, Craft (Locksmithing) 1, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 2, Disable Device 5, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge
(Dungeoneering) 1, Open Lock 4, Speak Language 1
5 SpellThief 1*. Sneak Attack (+1d6 when flanking etc.)
Skillranks: Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spell Craft 2
6 Ranger 1 Track, Favored Enemy (Arcanist)*
Feat: Improved Initiative
Skillranks: Knowledge(Arcana) 4, Spell Craft 3 (left: 1 point, undecided)
7 Ranger 2 TWF
Skillranks: (left: 5 points, undecided)
8 Occult Slayer 1 (+1 on saves vs spells,+1d6 vs spellcasters)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
9 Occult Slayer 2 (double damage on readied attack, spellturning 1/day)
Feat: Mage Slayer (spellcasters cannot cast defensively, +1 will saves)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
10 Occult Slayer 3 (detect magic, +2 on saves vs spells)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
11 Occult Slayer 4 (nondetection, spellturning 2/day)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
12 Occult Slayer 5 (immune to mind affecting, +3 on saves vs spells)
Feat: Pierce Magical Protection (ignore and dispel spells that improve AC)
Skillranks: (left: 1 point, undecided)
*: I'm going to try and convince my DM to allow:
-the handaxe to become a throwing axe (no great loss if he doesn't agree, but I agree with some of you here that it is more in line with the character)
-the Spellthief class. Even though I'm only taking one lvl, it allows me to buy the knowledge arcana and spellcraft skills cheap. If not, I'm stuck with buying them cross class using rogue and ranger, and I'll have a lot less skillpoints to spend.
-The Arcane Hunter alternate class feature (Complete Mage). Even though it's from a non-allowed sourcebook, it's not that far from the 'normal' class feature, and it matches the rest of the build.
I'd like to have your opinion on this build. (again, please ignore the first four levels and the stats, there's not a lot I can do about them anymore)
Specifically, I'd like some input on the feats I've chosen (except for Improved Initiative, which is a prereq for the Occult Slayer) and suggestions for skill point allocation and ability point allocation at lvl 8 and 12.
The DM has announced the campaign probably won't go past lvl 12, but just in case it does: any suggestions for progression beyond the specified levels?
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
FWIW, Flint was statted out in the War of the Lance 3.5 book from Sovereign Press (p.254).
He's a Neidar dwarf fighter 4/master 2 (as of post-Xak Tsaroth in 351 AC).
He's a Neidar dwarf fighter 4/master 2 (as of post-Xak Tsaroth in 351 AC).
Herzog
Adventurer
Thanks.
I get the feeling (after reading the description briefly) my DM used this as a basis for his build, but substituted expert for master (probably because he doesn't have the 'master' class in his Etools program), in addition to reducing the build to a 4th lvl character.
I'm kind of happy with how I got him now, however.
I've got him to replace the Handaxe with a throwing axe (both the feat and the magic weapon), and to allow Spellthief as a base class. (he originally only allowed PHB base classes, so I wasn't too sure he'd allow it)
He's OK with Occult Slayer as well.
The only thing he has shut down for now is the Ranger ACF 'Arcane Hunter' from Complete Mage. So I'll either need to convince him it's a good idea, or select a different Favored Enemy. (Dragons? It seems like the appropriate opponent to need that extra power. on the other hand, I'll probably meet goblinoids a lot more often....)
I'm still looking for hints to spend my surplus skillpoints on, and suggestions on post-Occult Slayer levels. Any suggestions welcome!
I get the feeling (after reading the description briefly) my DM used this as a basis for his build, but substituted expert for master (probably because he doesn't have the 'master' class in his Etools program), in addition to reducing the build to a 4th lvl character.
I'm kind of happy with how I got him now, however.
I've got him to replace the Handaxe with a throwing axe (both the feat and the magic weapon), and to allow Spellthief as a base class. (he originally only allowed PHB base classes, so I wasn't too sure he'd allow it)
He's OK with Occult Slayer as well.
The only thing he has shut down for now is the Ranger ACF 'Arcane Hunter' from Complete Mage. So I'll either need to convince him it's a good idea, or select a different Favored Enemy. (Dragons? It seems like the appropriate opponent to need that extra power. on the other hand, I'll probably meet goblinoids a lot more often....)
I'm still looking for hints to spend my surplus skillpoints on, and suggestions on post-Occult Slayer levels. Any suggestions welcome!
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