Need help designing a spell that triples base land speed

[whydirt]

Honestly, I think only +60' for a 3rd level spell is a little weak, especially at only 1 min/level. How many situations is it going to be more useful than Expedious Retreat?

I think either increasing the duration up to 10/min per level or making it add +10' per caster level to a maximum of +100' at 10th level would still be balanced.

 

[yennico]

Compare it to Fly. Fly gives you a straight speed of 60 ft (40 when encumbered), and lets you move in three dimensions.

Maximum speed for fly is 60 ft.

This spell instead increases your speed by 60 ft (same as fly)

Maximum speed is 60 ft + base speed (faster than a fly spell) or encumbered 40 ft + base speed.
The fly speed of a horse with a fly spell is 60 ft. the speed of a horse with the feet of fury spell is 120 ft.
By logic:
The fastest way from point A to point B in a straight line is by teleportation or dimension door
The second fastest way is by wind walk.
The third fastest way should be traveling beeline with a fly spell and not by running on land with a fleet fury spell.

but instead of allowing 3D movement you get to add your normal land speed.

That is not the same. The main effect of the feet of fury spell is to increase the speed. The spell increases the speed by a bonus and not to a fixed maximum speed. A bonus without a maximum speed is better than 3D movement.

An armored human would "only" have an effective move of 60 ft with the spell, not 80 ft.

The plated dwarf has a speed of 80 ft, so no rider can catch him.
The human has to pay twice for the encumbrance?
The base speed of the armored human is reduced by the encumbrance to 20 ft and the bonus of the spell is also reduced by the encumbrance to + 40 ft.?

 

[Staffan]

Maximum speed for fly is 60 ft.
Maximum speed is 60 ft + base speed (faster than a fly spell) or encumbered 40 ft + base speed.

Yes, it's faster than Fly. It's the same level, and if it doesn't give the ability to fly around, it should provide something else instead. That's the point.

The fastest way from point A to point B in a straight line is by teleportation or dimension door
The second fastest way is by wind walk.
The third fastest way should be traveling beeline with a fly spell and not by running on land with a fleet fury spell.

Why should one move-enhancing 3rd level spell be inferior to another in all respects? Flying gives a tactical advantage beyond its mere speed, because it allows you to stay in one place and still be out of reach. A flying wizard can remain out of reach of big dumb groundpounder monsters (like most elementals) and still hurt them a whole lot. He can also use the spell to reach other flying opponents (though for that purpose, you'd probably want to cast it on your fighter buddy instead), as well as overcome a number of obstacles (chasms, walls, etc). Feet of fury doesn't do any of that, it just lets you run really fast. Since it doesn't have the tactical advantages of fly, it should make up for that in other ways - namely, by being faster.

I could see your objection to feet of fury being faster than flying if it was 2nd level, but it's not. It's a 3rd level spell. At 3rd level, the spells should be equal overall.

That is not the same. The main effect of the feet of fury spell is to increase the speed. The spell increases the speed by a bonus and not to a fixed maximum speed. A bonus without a maximum speed is better than 3D movement.

Is it really? I know most of my characters would prefer a flying movement of 60 ft to a land speed of 90 ft.

The plated dwarf has a speed of 80 ft, so no rider can catch him.

And could they catch him if he went flying overhead instead?

The human has to pay twice for the encumbrance?
The base speed of the armored human is reduced by the encumbrance to 20 ft and the bonus of the spell is also reduced by the encumbrance to + 40 ft.?

The thing is that the spell would increase the human's base speed to 90 ft. An encumbered creature with a base speed of 90 ft would have an effective speed of 60 ft. Just like an encumbered flyer with a base speed of 60 ft would have an effective speed of 40 ft.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

So which is it? Is this spell too weak or too powerful?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

EOM comment..

I use the Elements of Magic rules, in which "Feet of Fury" would be a 5 MP spell for 1 minute duration. This is roughly equivilent to a 3rd level spell. It would also affects *all* movement rates.

One of my bad guys have a 2nd level version that grants +30 to move and turns them into a Stirge.. the better to escape with!

There are balance issues with allowing hig move speeds, even for short amounts of time. I had a player looking at going with a monk whose best abilities were movement based. He would have been nigh unhittable and capable of dashing about the battlefield. Doing some math on the issue, we realized he could get to the point of running at 30mph pretty quickly.

He chose to go a different way, I was kinda looking forward to the challenge of having a character who could dash back to town for supplies

If you wanted to limit the spell some, I would suggest making it a flat move of 60, but negate penalties from encumbrance. It would be on par with Fly but still provide a benefit.

 

[yennico]

Yes, it's faster than Fly. It's the same level, and if it doesn't give the ability to fly around, it should provide something else instead. That's the point.

I agree on this point, but the "something else instead" should not be an additional increase of speed. The "something else instead" can be anything except an additional increase of speed.
IMHO maximum speed for a 3rd level spell should be 60 ft.
Why because of balance reasons. Spells have ranges. Medium range is 100 ft. Ranged weapons have ranges. 120ft is the longest range. Tactical movements in combat.
Rules are designed for specific speed rates. E.g. you can not increase the speed of a horse by any 3rd level spell.
One reason why the feet of fury spell is so powerful is because of it´s range. The range of expeditous retreat and longstrider is personal, so only the spellcaster benefits from the spell and he can not cast the spell e.g. on his mount.

Why should one move-enhancing 3rd level spell be inferior to another in all respects?

No, each 3rd level spells should be equal in power.

Feet of fury doesn't do any of that, it just lets you run really fast. Since it doesn't have the tactical advantages of fly, it should make up for that in other ways

yes.

- namely, by being faster.

No! Feet of fury as 3rd level needs a bonus to be equal powerful as fly, but not an another increase of speed.

I could see your objection to feet of fury being faster than flying if it was 2nd level, but it's not. It's a 3rd level spell. At 3rd level, the spells should be equal overall.

I would change the range of the spell to personal. I would change the spell either to a 2nd level spell with an increase up to a maximum of 6o ft or as 3rd level spell also limit the speed to a maximum of 60 ft. + an additional bonus (no further speed increase).

And could they catch him if he went flying overhead instead?

Yes. A wizard riding horse has the same speed rate and he can try dispel the spell more than once.
How do you counter the feet of fury spell?

 

[Staffan]

Why because of balance reasons. Spells have ranges. Medium range is 100 ft. Ranged weapons have ranges. 120ft is the longest range. Tactical movements in combat.

At 3rd level, you've already got access to Long-range spells (like Fireball). Also, ranged weapons have range increments - you can shoot that 120ft weapon at someone 1200 ft away, you'll just be taking progressive penalties for it.

One reason why the feet of fury spell is so powerful is because of it´s range. The range of expeditous retreat and longstrider is personal, so only the spellcaster benefits from the spell and he can not cast the spell e.g. on his mount.

That is a good point. For some reason, I had thought that the other move-boosting spells had a touch range. Consider me persuaded that feet of fury should have a range of personal.

On the other hand, this makes your argument about speed vs range a little weaker. If the wizard wants to be able to do something about his opponents, he has to get within range of them. If his opponents are close enough that he can cast spells at them, then he's close enough that they can cast spells back. Also note that this is yet another way in which FoF is weaker than Fly.

Yes. A wizard riding horse has the same speed rate and he can try dispel the spell more than once.

He won't be getting many dispels off if the other wizard is flying straight up, or over a wall or something. Feet of fury might be better than Fly on a wide open field, but put some terrain in place and fly shows how much better 3D movement is than mere speed.

How do you counter the feet of fury spell?

Changing the battlefield. Long-range weaponry.

 

[Sledge]

I would change the range of the spell to personal. I would change the spell either to a 2nd level spell with an increase up to a maximum of 6o ft or as 3rd level spell also limit the speed to a maximum of 60 ft. + an additional bonus (no further speed increase).

So you suggest it give a maximum bonus of 60ft? Isn't that what the spell already does? I am sure you are not suggesting having it just give a speed of 60ft as that is what expeditious retreat already does.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I agree on this point, but the "something else instead" should not be an additional increase of speed. The "something else instead" can be anything except an additional increase of speed.
IMHO maximum speed for a 3rd level spell should be 60 ft.
Why because of balance reasons. Spells have ranges. Medium range is 100 ft. Ranged weapons have ranges. 120ft is the longest range. Tactical movements in combat.
Rules are designed for specific speed rates. E.g. you can not increase the speed of a horse by any 3rd level spell.
One reason why the feet of fury spell is so powerful is because of it´s range. The range of expeditous retreat and longstrider is personal, so only the spellcaster benefits from the spell and he can not cast the spell e.g. on his mount.

So should I make a 4th level spell to compensate for a range of touch?

 

[Bront]

It doesn't apply to either. You're probably thinking of the "vertical reach" thing, which is not a limit to your jumping, but a measure of how much you can add to the jumps you're capable of if your goal is to just jump up and grab hold of something. If you have a ledge that's 10 feet above the ground, you could never hope to jump up and land on it, but you could jump up and grab it. That's what the vertical reach is for.

Doh, corrected yet again.

Hey, I knew there was a reason I like getting input from other people.