Need help designing a spell that triples base land speed

[Bront]

So should I make a 4th level spell to compensate for a range of touch?

I disagree that the range of touch is more powerfull. Compairing it to the Expedious retreat, one level doubles the effect, and one level includes the touch, making it 3rd. Fly is a touch spell too if I remember correctly.

The spell gives a somewhat tactical advantage to those who are effected, but that's part of the point. You still can either move and attack, or attack and move, but not both. I see it being about equal to fly, because while fly is slower, it's not limited to the ground, which is a huge advantage. You still have problems when climing, swimming, or other movements.

 

[yennico]

So you suggest it give a maximum bonus of 60ft? Isn't that what the spell already does?

No, I´m suggesting to limit the maximum speed available by this spell to 60 ft/round, so base speed + spell speed is not higher than 60 ft.

I am sure you are not suggesting having it just give a speed of 60ft as that is what expeditious retreat already does.

Expeditous retreat does not grant a speed of 60 ft. Expeditious reatreat grant +30 ft. to the base speed of the spellcaster. Expeditious reatreat has no maximum speed limit. If the spellcaster has a base speed higher than 30 ft. e.g. barbarian1/spellcasterX or a centaur spellcaster, the spell expeditious retreat grants the spellcaster a speed higher than 60 ft.

 

[yennico]

At 3rd level, you've already got access to Long-range spells (like Fireball).

That is correct, but fireball is a spell designed to kill. Not every wizard wants to kill a person enhanced by the feet of fury spell.

On the other hand, this makes your argument about speed vs range a little weaker. If the wizard wants to be able to do something about his opponents, he has to get within range of them. If his opponents are close enough that he can cast spells at them, then he's close enough that they can cast spells back.

Your arguments are only true if the range of the spell is personal. If a spellcaster can cast feet of fury on everybody a paladin on a horse enhanced by the feet of fury spell the paladin if he has a higher initiative can charge the enemy wizard before he can cast the spell.
Increasing the speed of everbody makes long range spells more powerful and medium range spells weaker.

Also note that this is yet another way in which FoF is weaker than Fly.

That is not true. The real distance between the two enemies is with FoF and fly the same.

 

[yennico]

I disagree that the range of touch is more powerfull. Compairing it to the Expedious retreat, one level doubles the effect, and one level includes the touch, making it 3rd. Fly is a touch spell too if I remember correctly.

Fly is a touch spell but fly grants a maximum speed. Fly does not enhance the flying speed beyond 60 ft of a creature which already can fly.
With fly every creature is as fast as every other creature.
You can cast FoF on a dwarf in full plate and the dwarf is too fast to be catched by normal means.
Or cast the spell on any creature with a base speed of 5. This creature enhanced by the spell is faster than any cheetah or horse. It can only be catched and not killed by a creature with base speed higher than 5 and also the spell FoF.

There is also another reason why the spell should be limited to 60 ft/round.
The range of vision. Most creatures see in the dark only 60 ft and no creature runs at full speed into a terrain it can not see. Even in daylight a creature can not see beyond a small hill. With a fly spell the creature is in the air where normally not so much obstacles are.

You still can either move and attack, or attack and move, but not both.

That is not correct e.g. Shot on the run, Horse enhanced by the FoF spell and rider attacks.

 

[yennico]

So should I make a 4th level spell to compensate for a range of touch?

I do not know why you need this spell but a level 4 already exists a spell which grants 400ft + 40ft/level per one round. It is called dimension door.

 

[Bront]

Fly is a touch spell but fly grants a maximum speed. Fly does not enhance the flying speed beyond 60 ft of a creature which already can fly.
With fly every creature is as fast as every other creature.
You can cast FoF on a dwarf in full plate and the dwarf is too fast to be catched by normal means.
Or cast the spell on any creature with a base speed of 5. This creature enhanced by the spell is faster than any cheetah or horse. It can only be catched and not killed by a creature with base speed higher than 5 and also the spell FoF.

The point of the spell though is to give a flat bonus.

Consider a potion of expedius retreat (not unreasonable). Sudently the dwarf in platemail can gain his +30' movement. How is it unreasonable that he gains +30 more? Saying he's now faster than other creatures doesn't make it unbalanced, because it's a magical spell. Natural creatures can't cast fireballs, most can't fly, and if they can't be caught by normal means, not a big deal. That's the point of the spell.

A fly spell grants a flat 60 fly, but that's because most creatures likely to have it cast uppon them can't fly normaly. Giving a human +30 fly speed is useless, because they can't fly normaly. And most natural creatures can't catch someone with fly any easier than someone who has FoF cast on them. They can't even follow them.

You mentioned things with a 5' move. Fly and FoF are almost the identical spell here, except fly is more powerful by far in this case, because you're not limited to ground movement.

You mentioned 60' vision. Fly takes you out of that range too.

FYI:

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

According to the RAW, you can empower an expedious retreat and allow a +45' speed bonus. Personaly, I don't think FoF is too powerfull, but just to note than you can already add more than 30' to your movement using spells in the RAW. Not to mention they stack with books of striding and springing, monk speed bonuses, barb speed bonuses, ect.

I do think that perhaps you should limit the spell to huminoids of medium size or smaller, so no +60' horses.

 

[yennico]

Saying he's now faster than other creatures doesn't make it unbalanced, because it's a magical spell.

it is not unbalanced because of being faster than other creatures. It is unbalanced because movement is important part in combat, in combat rules, etc.... and the rules are designed for a specific speed (base speed or enhanced speed)
A base speed chart /per round
5 ft step
10 ft.
15 ft.
20 ft. dwarf
30 ft. human
40 ft. human barbarian
60 ft. fly, expeditious retreat on human
75 ft. human with empowered expedititous retreat spell (wich uses a 3rd level slot and the caster needs a feat)
faster: Dimension door, Teleport, Windwalk

Natural creatures can't cast fireballs, most can't fly, and if they can't be caught by normal means, not a big deal. That's the point of the spell.

Most SRD ground bound creatures have a base speed maximum 60 ft (megaraptor).
The combat rules are based on this movement. With a fly spell a person can catch each land-bound creature.

You mentioned things with a 5' move. Fly and FoF are almost the identical spell here,

A creature with 5´move enhanced by a fly spell has a speed of 60 ft.
A creature with 5´move enhanced by a FoF spell has a speed of 65 ft.

except fly is more powerful by far in this case, because you're not limited to ground movement.

That is correct. But granting more boost to speed is no option to improve the power of a FoF spell to the level of power of a fly spell.

You mentioned 60' vision. Fly takes you out of that range too.

Yes but a creature with fly spell can only fly 60´per round. A full plate dwarf enhanced by a FoF spell can run 80 ft. per round but only sees 60´.

According to the RAW, you can empower an expedious retreat and allow a +45' speed bonus.

That is correct, but
1. empowered expeditious retreat uses a 3rd level spell slot and grants only +45 ft. and not +60 ft.
2. you need a feat for empowering.
3. The range of expeditious retreat is personal
4. If FoF exists nobody would cast an empowered expeditious retreat spell.

Edited: If do not know if you can empower expeditious retreat, because

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

.
Expeditious retreat grants a fixed +30, a bonus that is not variable.
If you can empower expeditious retreat you can empower the fly spell to 90 ft.

Personaly, I don't think FoF is too powerfull, but just to note than you can already add more than 30' to your movement using spells in the RAW. Not to mention they stack with books of striding and springing, monk speed bonuses, barb speed bonuses, ect.

But you can not add +60 ft ground speed to your base speed using the RAW.
If FoF adds +60 ft:
- it is weaker than the fly spell
- but it is more powerful than an empowered expeditious retreat spell because FoF has a higher bonus and the range is not personal.

I do think that perhaps you should limit the spell to huminoids of medium size or smaller, so no +60' horses.

With your limitation a centaur or giant spellcaster has no benefit from this spell.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Missed?

I was hoping to get some feedback on my comment upthread...so I will be horribly impolite and repeat it.

How about FoF granting a flat 60' move and removing encumbrance?

 

[yennico]

Not to mention they stack with books of striding and springing, monk speed bonuses, barb speed bonuses, ect.

Pure monks and barbarians normally can not cast expeditious retreat because they are no spellcasters.
The boots are also a way to increase the speed for a non-spellcaster.
For horses the horsehoes of speed are the way to increase the speed.
With a FoF spell with a not personal range every creature can be target of the spell.
The combination of other increases like monk´s speed and a FoF spell for erveryone is an unbalancing thing.

 

[yennico]

How about FoF granting a flat 60' move and removing encumbrance?

I like this idea. Your idea is like the idea I had. I wanted to limit the speed to 60 ft. and grant another bonus effect so the FoF spell is equal powerful as the fly spell.
Removing the encumbrance sounds ok for be.
With a maximum speed of 60´nobody casts this spell on a horse, so you also can increase the range from personal to touch.

You spell would be more powerful than an empowered expeditious retreat.