need help with a balanced build druid

[jgsugden]

Please explain this line from your quoted text:

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

If it could only be taken once, why more than one value after the 1d10?

AdvaTHANKSnce, -- N

Because you may not start with 1d10 damage. Some natural attacks (particularly attacks of very big creatures) may start off at a higher point.

For instance, a dragon turtle has a claw attack that does 2d8+4. If it was advanced from 12 HD to 15 HD, it would gain another feat. If that feat were improved natural attack (claws), the damage would increase to 3d8+4.

 

[queldonus]

this is all useful, but back to my origional idea: i would like to be able to handle the average fight with claws and teeth, thus saving my uses of wild shape.
Bear in mind i'm doing this for thematic reasons. I know it would probably work better to carry a sword, but i don't want to. That's why i'm asking for suggestions.

Improved Natural attack and a permantly enchanted magic fang are a start. where should i go from there?

 

[Nifft]

Because you may not start with 1d10 damage. Some natural attacks (particularly attacks of very big creatures) may start off at a higher point.

No, sorry, that was covered by the line ABOVE the one I copied from your quote.

Seriously: go back, read the words you cut-n-pasted in to your previous post, and give a reason why you really think they needed to write the damage progression twice.

Now, ask yourself why they didn't add a special note to the effect that you can take the Feat more than once, each time choosing a different natural weapon.

The obvious answer is: the authors messed up and didn't write ANY special note. The Feat is intended to be taken more than once, and its effects are meant to stack.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

this is all useful, but back to my origional idea: i would like to be able to handle the average fight with claws and teeth, thus saving my uses of wild shape.

You are far enough from the Core Rules that it's hard to say, really. Since the premise of a +16 stat boost being 'balanced' by LA +1 is flawed, I'm not sure you can ever build a 'balanced' character on top of it.

Since I don't know the particulars of your world or party or DM, I'm unqualified to help with much more... look at the feats in the MM, though, for ideas on natural attacks.

-- N

 

[Benben]

Seriously: go back, read the words you cut-n-pasted in to your previous post, and give a reason why you really think they needed to write the damage progression twice.

Nifft, the weapon size advancement table has a weird burp to it.

Table: Increased Damage By Size

Old Damage (Each)         *New Damage
1d2                         1d3
1d3                         1d4
1d4                         1d6
1d6                         1d8
1d8                         2d6
1d10                       2d8
2d6                         3d6
2d8                         3d8

Look how the table progresses. 1D2->1D3->1D4->1D6->1D8->2D6->3D6
1D10 got skipped in that progression. That is why Imp. Nat Attack has two entries for the damage tables. One is for the 1D2 progression the other is for the 1D10 progression.

*Edit to fix table spacing.

 

[queldonus]

Ecl 3

the +1 is a typo, the racial mods are +3 levels.

 

[Nifft]

Look how the table progresses. 1D2->1D3->1D4->1D6->1D8->2D6->3D6
1D10 got skipped in that progression. That is why Imp. Nat Attack has two entries for the damage tables. One is for the 1D2 progression the other is for the 1D10 progression.

If you were correct, the text you quoted would only have an entry for 1d10 -> 2d8.

Instead, it has progression for what happens to 1d10 through multiple applications of the Improved Natural Attack Feat. Which is my point.

the +1 is a typo, the racial mods are +3 levels.

So, you have two levels of Humanoid + 3 LA = +5 ECL?
That might be fair... so you'd need to be level 6 before you can cast 1st level spells, like Magic Fang. If your claws are primary, I'd ditch Multiattack and not bother with doing the Bite much at all.

-- N

 

[Benben]

If you were correct, the text you quoted would only have an entry for 1d10 -> 2d8.

The feat text has the comma presentation which is just the table compressed into a sentence. Since there are two different threads in the die increase table the comma presentation required two sentences. This is why there are so many entries in the feat.

Instead, it has progression for what happens to 1d10 through multiple applications of the Improved Natural Attack Feat. Which is my point.

No, it's giving base damage dice for the DM to cross reference and the increase by one step. There are so many entries because gargantuan monsters would fall off the normal table for base damage dice.

Without a special entry it's arguable that the feat can't even be taken twice for different natural weapons, which is silly. This is one thing I think we can both agree upon.

I think it's more likely that this feat is to act like weapon focus, weapon, specialization, and improved critical. One feat to effect one weapon.

I also don't think that it can be taken more than once because of the examples of weapon focus and weapon specialization which have their own progression chain with greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization. I could see a Greater Improved Natural Attack added in a future supplement.

Perhaps this would be a good question for the Sage?

 

[jgsugden]

The list tells you what to do for any given damage situation. The reason why there are entries after d10 -> 2d8 is that some monsters (without the INA feat) already deal 2d8, 3d8 or 4d8 damage. They included info so you can know what to do when advancing these numbers.

Take, for instance, the triceratops (pg 61 of the 3.5 MM). It deals 2d8+15 damage. If one were to give it a few more hit dice, it could gain a new feat. If that feat were INA, that damage would increase from 2d8 to 3d8 according to the second list in INA.

You would not know this if the INA feat did not list information for how to advance from 2d8 damage (ie; if it ended at d10 -> 2d8).

Simply put, there are two progressions. We need to have both progressions because there are instances that occur on each table. That is why they are there.

 

[Benben]

Improved Natural attack and a permantly enchanted magic fang are a start. where should i go from there?

Sorry about the hijack queldonus.

You'll want to increase your AC with Barkskin.

A low level option increase to damage is Produce Flame. This is a touch attack normally but I believe you can add your claw damage with a normal melee attack. This will effect only one paw/claw, so multiple castings are necessary to get two flaming paws of death(tm). You might want to talk your DM into a metamagic feat or alternate spell that lets you cast Produce Flame on both of your claws at once.

Make sure to take advantage of the Druid touch spells: Poison, Contagion, and Rusting Grasp.

You will definitely want to max out your Concentration skill since you will be casting in melee frequently.