Need Help with Cost of Magic Ring

[Darkness]

Moved to Rules...

 

[Berk]

First off need to be 12th level to get forge ring

Second, skill raising bonuses are priced extremely low, especially for skills that are almost always going to be used like 3 times a game session.

The sorcerer will have to be 12th level, know forge ring, know identify, and detect magic.

The cost is as follows;
identify as command word. 1(spell level)x1(caster level)x1800(command word)/1.25(4 charges a day so 5/4)+400(100gp per charge for the material component)x2(100% increase)=3680
detect magic is 1(spell level)x1(caster level)x2000(use activated)x2(100% increase)=4000

if you add the skill bonus and do it by the book it will come out to be 25x25x20=12500

for a grand total of 20180gp, costing the sor 10090gp and 807.2 exp to create. Would be best to round this off though to most likely 22500gp total costing the sor 11250gp and 900exp. Very cheap for what it can do, mainly cuz of the skill bonus implied which is why a lot of people say +10 is as much as they will allow in non-epic conditions.

 

[mkletch]

Epic skill boost items grant a bonus of higher than +30, so this is not an epic ring.

[...]

ID 4/day (once again, command activated): 12,880

The only non-epic items over +10 are the ones based on Jump. Regardless of what epic items "are", non-epic items "are not" more than +10.

How did you come up with the identify price?

identify as command word. 1(spell level)x1(caster level)x1800(command word)/1.25(4 charges a day so 5/4)+400(100gp per charge for the material component)x2(100% increase)=3680
detect magic is 1(spell level)x1(caster level)x2000(use activated)x2(100% increase)=4000

Detect magic is 0-level, and therefore counts as a 0.5 level spell for magic item formulae.

As for the identify, you calculate the price as an unlimited command word item (1*1*1800) then add the price of the material component 50 times. Take this total, divide by five and multiply by the number of charges.

From the SRD, Magic Items (Creating Magic Items)
Spell has material component Add directly into price of item[**]

[...]

**If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine cost as if it had 50 charges.

I added the **, since it is missing in the SRD, but is present in the DMG and Tome & Blood. So, figure 50 uses of the material, but multiply by 4/5 since it is only 4/day.

-Fletch!

 

[kreynolds]

The only non-epic items over +10 are the ones based on Jump.

The Ring of Chameleon Power grants a +15 bonus to Hide checks.

Regardless of what epic items "are", non-epic items "are not" more than +10.

You sure about that?

 

[mkletch]

There is an implied list of maximums. It has been mentioned in chats, forums, etc. by the original 3E designers. I guess that, similar to how magic item pricing obeys the rules 'most of the time', so do the maximum bonuses. +10 is supposed to be the maximum non-epic skill bonus, but there are some exceptions.

Ring of jumping ignores the skill bonus computation altogether and is simply based off a 1st level spell. I'm sure they had some other 'good reason' to make ring of chameleon power different also. But I have no idea what that would be. The 'rules' for item creation are followed on about 85-90% of the items in the DMG (a rough guess only).

-Fletch!

 

[kreynolds]

There is an implied list of maximums.

Anything implied has been done so by you. The rules do not imply this.

Ring of jumping ignores the skill bonus computation altogether and is simply based off a 1st level spell.

The ring of jumping is an exception because you do not get a one-for-one return from a skill bonus, thus the higher bonus.

The 'rules' for item creation are followed on about 85-90% of the items in the DMG (a rough guess only).

I'm not aware of any non-artifact items that grant bonuses which exceed the limitations as defined by the DMG (though I could be missing them, so if you know of any, I'd be very interested, as that would probably change my viewpoint considerably). The fact that the Ring of Chameleon Power is not an artifact only shows that +10 is not the limit.

I will, however, concede that granting a skill bonus higher than +10, and strictly following the pricing guidelines, can cause problems depending upon the skill. Skills are not necessarily equal. A +30 bonus to Hide is arguably more powerful than a +30 bonus to Read Lips.

 

[Antikinesis]

The only non-epic items over +10 are the ones based on Jump. Regardless of what epic items "are", non-epic items "are not" more than +10.

Robe of Blending, +15 hide, 10000 gp.

Robe of Eyes, +15 spot, +15 search, 90000 gp.
(Doesn't quite follow the pricing guidelines for skills enhancements, does it? You gotta use a bit of your own judgement when pricing stuff.)

-AK

 

[kreynolds]

(Doesn't quite follow the pricing guidelines for skills enhancements, does it? You gotta use a bit of your own judgement when pricing stuff.)

Yup. I can't remember whose boards I was it on, either SKR's or MC's, but they said the same thing.

EDIT: Whoops. Messed up Monte's initials.

 

[mkletch]

Now, kreynolds, you're being just a tad argumentative. The implied maximums come from Monte, SKR and others. Before the Epic book, there was nothing that said you could not pop out a Belt of Strength +10, or a Ring of Hide +25, but there was an understanding, supported by designer comments and input, that such things were beyond the normal ability of the item creation feats. The +10 bonus is (mostly) supported in MoF, as well, the main repository for non-OGC items from WotC.

Yup. I can't remember whose boards I was it on, either SKR's or MK's, but they said the same thing.

Both have said this. But I look at it as a defense of poorly statted or leveled spells, and not a reflection of the item generation system. All are free to disagree, and I'm sure many will. But the gross disparity between spells of he same level is probably only the major flaw that I will repeatedly complain against.

The fact that they came up with a magic item system that hits and balances so many items (85%+) by cost is amazing, almost unbeliveable. I was amazed when I got the DMG, and began playing with it immediately. But the success of the magic item pricing system also points out the flaws in the base material, not the other way around. There is too much data supporting the other items/spells to think that the 'tweaked-price' items come from balanced spells.

If the system and the base material (spells primarily) were both balanced, every item generated would be correctly balanced by price. The fact that it does not shows that one is out of whack. And if the vast majority of the items do come out balanced the odds that it is the "offending" spells that are unbalanced is overwhelming. Think what you like; it is a fantasy game, and reality and logic need not apply.

Random musing: Skill bonus cubed x50gp would make a lot of people happy and allow any bonus up to the sky balanced for epic or non-epic play.

-Fletch!

 

[kreynolds]

Now, kreynolds, you're being just a tad argumentative.

I'm being argumentative by holding a discussion with you? If I simply agreed with everything you say, there wouldn't be a discussion. Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I am being argumentative.

You said the skill limit is +10, yet you say the Ring of Chameleon Power is merely an exception. However, two other examples have been given to you since then. Are those exceptions too? I also stated that I am unaware of any non-artifact items that exceed any stated limits, and up to this point, I still don't see any. Doesn't it seem strange that out of all the magic items in the DMG, only 4 of them actually grant any kind of bonus above your implied limit, and they aren't even artifacts, when artifacts are the only items capable of exceeding such limits? So, either those three aforementioned rings are in actually artifacts, or the limit is in fact not +10.

It's one or the other.